40) "(I have) a wide stance when going to the bathroom." -- Republican Senator Larry Craig tries to explain away his attempt to pick-up an under cover police officer in an airport bathroom
39) "I'd say something about John Edwards, but if you use the word 'f*ggot', you have to go to rehab." -- Ann Coulter
38) "Aww don't feel noways tired. I've come too faarrr from where I started frum. . . . Aww could have listened all day luung." - Hillary Clinton engages in patronizing hickspeak in Selma, Alabama.
37) "hilary clinton and barak hussein obama cannot win, and they are put in place to assure a victory by mitt romney... this is the plan of all the insurance companies that are owned by Mormon interests. It is unfolding as the mormon church planned over the last fifty years." -- Roseanne Barr
36) "(News of killings is) not good for us, but it also keeps the New Orleans brand out there, and it keeps people thinking about our needs and what we need to bring this community back." -- Democratic Mayor of New Orleans, Ray Nagin, explains the upside of murders in his city
35) "Let's face it: If the mothers ruled the world, there would be no Godd*mned wars in the first place." -- Sally Field
34) "Perhaps the outpouring of sympathy for [the falsely arrested Duke lacrosse players] Reade Seligman, Collin Finnerty and David Evans is just a bit misplaced....As students of Duke University or other elite institutions, these young men will get on with their privileged lives....They are very differently situated in life from, say, the young women of the Rutgers University women's basketball team." -- Nightline co-anchor Terry Moran explains how the men falsely accused of rape got off light compared to the women who were called "nappy headed hos"
33) "I do believe that it's the first time in history that fire has ever melted steel. I do believe that it defies physics that World Trade Center tower 7 -- building 7, which collapsed in on itself -- it is impossible for a building to fall the way it fell without explosives being involved. World Trade Center 7. World Trade [Center] 1 and 2 got hit by planes -- 7, miraculously, the first time in history, steel was melted by fire. It is physically impossible." -- Rosie O'Donnell talks Trutherism
32) "And I think the almost undeviating support by Great Britain for the ill-advised policies of President Bush in Iraq have been a major tragedy for the world." -- Jimmy Carter castigates the British for cooperating with his own country
31) "I don't know what it's going to take for people to really wake up and understand that they [the Bush administration] are liars and they are murderers." -- Joy Behar from The View
30) "Some people just don't like Mexicans -- or anyone else from south of the border. They think Latinos are freeloaders and welfare cheats who are too lazy to learn English. They think Latinos have too many babies, and that Latino kids will dumb down our schools. They think Latinos are dirty, diseased, indolent and more prone to criminal behavior. They think Latinos are just too different from us ever to become real Americans.No amount of hard, empirical evidence to the contrary, and no amount of reasoned argument or appeals to decency and fairness, will convince this small group of Americans -- fewer than 10 percent of the general population, at most -- otherwise. Unfortunately, among this group is a fair number of Republican members of Congress, almost all influential conservative talk radio hosts, some cable news anchors -- most prominently, Lou Dobbs -- and a handful of public policy "experts" at organizations such as the Center for Immigration Studies, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, NumbersUSA, in addition to fringe groups like the Minuteman Project.
Stripped bare, this is what the current debate on immigration reform is all about." -- Linda Chavez
29) "Well, because the Arabs who were involved in 9/11 cooperated with the Zionists, actually. It was a cooperation. They gave them the perfect excuse to denounce all Arabs. It's a racist sort of thing, really racist – you know, picking out these 19 or 20 terrorists – they were terrorists – and saying all the Arabs are like them." -- Former Democratic Senator James Abourezk on Hizbullah TV
28) "You could argue that even the world's worst fascist dictators at least meant well. They honestly thought [they] were doing good things for their countries by suppressing blacks/eliminating Jews/eradicating free enterprise/repressing individual thought/killing off rivals/invading neighbors, etc. ... Bush set a new precedent. He came into office with the attitude of 'I'm so tired of the public good. What about my good? What about my rich friends' good?'" -- Peter Mehlman at The Huffington Post
27) "Is there such a thing as a man-made stroke? In other words, did someone do this to (Democratic Senator Tim Johnson)? ...I know what this [Republican] party is capable of." -- Joy Behar on The View
26) "Let's just say that global warming deniers are now on a par with Holocaust deniers, though one denies the past and the other denies the present and future." -- Columnist Ellen Goodman
25) "When I see a stroller now, I see it as someone who evicted a person with AIDS, right or wrong." -- Brian Basinger, president of the Harvey Milk Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transsexual Democratic Club on the horror of having to live near heterosexual families in San Francisco.
24) "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country." -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at Columbia University
23) "A lot of people come up here and thank Jesus for this award. I want you to know that no one had less to do with this award than Jesus. Suck it, Jesus, this award is my god now!" -- Kathy Griffin
22) "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy, I mean, that's a storybook, man." -- Joe Biden on Barack Obama
21) "Our humanity has been compromised by those who use Gestapo tactics in our war. The longer we stand idly by while they do so, the more we resemble those 'good Germans' who professed ignorance of their own Gestapo." -- Frank Rich
20) "That we have collectively failed to halt and repudiate the war in Iraq makes us even worse than the Germans." -- Scott Ritter
19) "I propose a limitation be put on how many sqares [sic] of toilet paper can be used in any one sitting. Now, I don't want to rob any law-abiding American of his or her God-given rights, but I think we are an industrious enough people that we can make it work with only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where 2 to 3 could be required." -- Sheryl Crow at the Huffington Post
18) "Now I believe, myself, that the secretary of state, the secretary of defense and you have to make your own decision as to what the president knows: that this war is lost, that the surge is not accomplishing anything." -- Democratic Senator Majority Leader, Harry Reid
17) "I used to have violence fantasies about Scott McClellan because of the inpenetrable wall of idiocy and supposed ignorance, some of which was probably not supposed, that behind which he used to hide at every press conference. All those feelings are being shifted now to Dana Perino, violence fantasies." -- Liberal radio host, Mike Malloy
16) "Al Qaeda really hurt us, but not as much as Rupert Murdoch has hurt us, particularly in the case of Fox News. Fox News is worse than Al Qaeda -- worse for our society. It's as dangerous as the Ku Klux Klan ever was." -- MSNBC's Keith Olbermann
15) "America needs to follow the policies it has introduced in Germany. We have to go through a certain de-Nazification process." -- George Soros
14) "Impeach the President and the Vice President, they are traitors to America, and so are all of their supporters. Impeach! Anyone in congress who refuses to save our union from these traitors by doing nothing needs to be recalled." -- Roseanne Barr
13) "Now the people in the Administration of George Bush better remember their Miranda rights, because when I'm elected President I'm going to see that they are arrested. I'm not kidding here!" -- Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich
12) "I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power, people wouldn't be dying needlessly tomorrow....I'm just saying if he did die, other people, more people would live. That's a fact." -- Bill Maher
11) "Drudge? Aw, Drudge, somebody ought to wrap a strong Republican entrail around his neck and hoist him up about six feet in the air and watch him bounce." -- Liberal radio host, Mike Malloy
10) "It's good (Michelle Malkin's) in D.C. and I'm in New York. I'd spit on her if I saw her." -- Geraldo Rivera
9) "I hear about Tony Snow and say to myself, well, stand up every day, lie to the American people at the behest of your dictator-esque boss and well, how could a cancer NOT grow in you. Work for Fox News, spinning the truth in to a billion knots and how can your gut not rot? I know, it's terrible. I admit it. I don't wish anyone harm, even Tony Snow. And I do hope he recovers or at least does what he feels is best and surrounds himself with friends and family for his journey. But in the back of my head there's Justin Timberlake's "What goes around, goes around, comes around, comes all the way back around, ya." -- Charles Karel Bouley at The Huffington Post
8) "When doctors pronounced the Rev. Jerry Laymon Falwell Sr. dead at 12:40 p.m. EST Tuesday....my first thoughts were not of what to say or write. In fact, my very first thought upon hearing of the Rev. Falwell's passing was: Good. And I didn't mean 'good' in a oh-good-he's-gone-home-to-be-with-the-Lord kind of way. I meant 'good" as in "Ding-dong, the witch is dead.'" -- Cathleen Falsani
7) "Through every Abu aib and Haditha, through every rape and murder, the American public has indulged those in uniform....We pay the soldiers a decent wage, take care of their families, provide them with housing and medical care and vast social support systems and ship obscene amenities into the war zone for them, we support them in every possible way, and their attitude is that we should in addition roll over and play dead, defer to the military and the generals and let them fight their war, and give up our rights and responsibilities to speak up because they are above society?...[T]he recent NBC report is just an ugly reminder of the price we pay for a mercenary -- oops sorry, volunteer -- force that thinks it is doing the dirty work." -- The Washington Post's William Arkin
6) "You don't have money to fund the war or children, but you're going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we could get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president's amusement." -- Democratic Congressman Pete Stark
5) "General Petraeus or General Betray Us? ...Today, before Congress and the American people, General Petraeus is likely to become General Betray Us." -- MoveOn
4) "General Pace - you have the power to fulfill your responsibility to protect the troops under your command. Indeed you have an obligation to do so.You can relieve the President of his command.
Not of his Presidency. But of his military role as Commander-In-Chief."
...To be crystal clear - I am NOT advocating or inciting you to undertake any illegal act, insurrection, mutiny, putsch or military coup.
...In addition to relieving him of his command as Commander-In-Chief, you also have authority to place the President under MILITARY arrest." -- Martin Lewis at the Huffington Post
"3) A friend of ours said if the same laws were applied to U.S. Presidents as were applied to the Nazis after WWII, that every single one of them, every last rich white one of them, from Truman on would be hung to death and shot. And this current administration is no exception. They should be hung and tried and shot as war criminals." -- Zack de la Rocha, Rage Against The Machine
2) "O&A - "Condoleezza Rice"Charlie - "I'd love to f--- that b*tch dude" (laughter)
Charlie - "She's the F---in man"
O&A - "yeah"
Charlie - "I'd F...that b*tch...."
O&A - "I just imagine the horror in Condoleezza Rice's face...."
- "(laughter) ..... as she realizes what's going on"
- "...as you were just holding her down and F'n her."Charlie - "punch her all the F'n face, shut the F--- up b*tch"
O&A - "that's exactly what I meant" (laughter in background)
Charlie - "you know F--- it .... and George Bush wife? I'd F--- that b*tch to death" -- "Shock Jocks" Opie & Anthony talk rape & violence with their guest "Homeless Charlie."
1) "Over time, however, the endless war in Iraq began to play a role in natural selection. Only idiots signed up; only idiots died. Back home, the average I.Q. soared." -- Ted Rall
Also see,
The 40 Most Obnoxious Quotes Of 2006
The 40 Most Obnoxious Quotes For 2005
The 40 Most Obnoxious Quotes For 2004
|
Score:
John Hawkins | 08:05 AM |
(4)
Ahh, Rage Against the Machine - there are few other entertainment groups/people who offer as much entertainment (Bono slightly tops them).
There is something about an total Anarchist band that rages against the machine but then goes on to embrace it (while still supposedly raging against it). Add in their fans that are fans for their political message and I find it even more amusing. I happen to think that their song on the Matrix soundtrack was quite good so one can like their music for other reasons.
Any Anarchist that has *anything* thing to do with the RIAA has 100% sold out (by any definition of the phrase) - they can give whatever excuse they want, if they were not not die hard Anarchists I may even have some sympathy for their ideas (yes, if you want to play nationally or globally you have no real choice, but then obviously that whole "rage" isn't as white hot as you make out).
There are many many many bands out there that believe similar and stay non-riaa and do quite well. While I can't say I agree with their stance I can at least have some level of respect about someone who lives by their ideas no matter how crazy I think they are. Rage lost that the moment they signed - "Rage against the Machine (as long as it isn't our Machine)!".
Posted by strcpy
2008-01-02 04:04:24
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 06:59:51
Charges of 'cherry picking' in 5...4...3...2...
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 07:24:10
Posted by Capitalist_Infidel
2008-01-02 09:07:20
I dont think this qualifies as a quote either. It is a dialog, and comedy at that. If taking a joke seriously counts as an obnoxious quote there are plenty of better ones to chose from.
Posted by jigglypuff
2008-01-02 09:07:46
Anyway, I just don't get it. Why are these quotes not the death knell for all their authors? How can you say these things and not be buried for them? Where's the outrage??!!!!!??
Posted by bob234
2008-01-02 09:08:02
I used to listen to him on the now defunct IE America channel and before he got fired from Air america. The guy is a lunatic. I can safely say without exageration that I hear more real hate speach on his show than when I listen to the pod casts of honest to god Neo-Nazis.
"Trench Raider"
Posted by trenchraider
2008-01-02 09:11:58
January 2, 2008 9:07 AM |
You are still questioning…. I am at the point of telling them they are traders and they need to go live in Iran. Get the fuck out. Go and live what you are spouting. If you want this to be Russia then go. Go to Russia and be happy.
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 09:47:45
Posted by sneaky_snipe
2008-01-02 09:50:20
No. These Liberal sleazeballs don't have any to question.
Posted by CavalierX
2008-01-02 10:01:07
So, was it a "homeless guy who was going off about rape", or was it "a dialog, and comedy at that"?
Don Imus gets thrown off the air for calling some black women "nappy headed ho's", but liberal's can slam black Conservatives at will.
Where is the NAACP with this racists and hateful attack on a prominent black?
Where is NOW with this hate-filled and violent attack on a prominent woman?
Oh, that's right, she's a Conservative? It is OK to commit hate-crimes and make violent sexists remarks against them.
This quote deserves to be in the Top 5, followed by the question "Why are they still on the air??????"!
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 10:24:37
So, was it a "homeless guy who was going off about rape", or was it "a dialog, and comedy at that"?
Don Imus gets thrown off the air for calling some black women "nappy headed ho's", but liberal's can slam black Conservatives at will.
Where is the NAACP with this racist and hateful attack on a prominent black?
Where is NOW with this hate-filled and violent attack on a prominent woman?
Oh, that's right, she's a Conservative! It is OK to commit hate-crimes and make violent sexists remarks against them.
This quote deserves to be in the Top 5, followed by the question "Why are they still on the air??????"!
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 10:32:33
Posted by Corperate_Cabana
2008-01-02 10:49:12
I always knew Ted Rall was a p.o.s.
I can't understand why he is still getting paid--by ANYONE--for the drek he puts out.
Posted by jules
2008-01-02 11:25:05
Because there are many Liberals out there that believe what he says, but are just too cowardly to say it themselves.
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 11:28:06
January 2, 2008 11:19 AM |
Morning Stan. How was the holidays? Grand babies good I hope.. Did they fleece ya this year?
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 11:30:29
Morning, Dog. Happy New Year to you and your's!
GrandSon is doing great. He got everything he asked for, and more! Santa was good to everyone this year!
How's Mr. Petey doing?
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 11:32:54
January 2, 2008 11:32 AM |
He is happy... He did good at the last checkup. They are going to start trying to scar over the wound. It is about the size of 3 quarters put together in a triangle. Once that is done we are good. He are not sure if he will ever work again. He is spooky around cattle now. We shall see about sheep… He has gained a lot of weight and it is starting to look like he will keep it for a time. I will be having a knee fix and will be on my ass for a bit. Best to get it done now that way I will be good for Elk season.
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 11:42:26
The left loves to do this when they don't have a leg to stand on in rational debate. When they know they can't win the start throwing out meaningless buzz words like "racist", "homophobe", etc to put their opponents on the defensive.
Just sneer at these idiots, Stan.
"Trench Raider"
Posted by trenchraider
2008-01-02 12:19:23
January 2, 2008 12:34 PM |
Oh Joy.... Just kidding trench. Hope it is. Broke that is..
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 12:38:11
January 2, 2008 12:53 PM |
Live and a serious 'useful idiot!'
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 12:55:39
Posted by jules
2008-01-02 13:08:01
Posted by mipt
2008-01-02 13:14:45
Posted by hogground
2008-01-02 13:16:18
You know Hog, if you continue to post that quote every day for the next two months, along with your BDS-induced commentary to it, we will all bow down and proclaim it the most obnoxious quote of 2007...
NOT!!!!!
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 13:21:26
January 2, 2008 1:16 PM |
Well that's your opinion, and we don't care about YOUR opinion.
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 13:21:36
I don't get the BDS reference. I give BushII high marks for possesing the intellegence and courage to replace the Cheney-Rumsfeld-Bolton-Wofowitz foreign policy faction with the Gates-Rice faction. Any good US President has to be able to recognize and weed out non-performers within his Administraion. The negative consequences for all US citizens are immeasurable if a President continues to allow amatures to direct his foreign policy
Posted by hogground
2008-01-02 13:45:06
January 2, 2008 1:45 PM |
The problem hog, is that it's your OPINION that Cheney, Rumsefled, Bolton, etc are non-performers, and it's ONLY an OPINION. And we find as valuable as tits on a boar.
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 13:47:53
Right on, resident Carter! Just what is wrong with this quote? Does anybody here actually think that Presdent Bush's Iraq policies were NOT ill-advised? I bet that even President Bush believes down deep that his invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake. Obviously, Bush cannot admit his own feelings for political reasons. Woud anyone want to admit that 4,000+ coalition and contractors killed and 30,000+ wounded, 400,000+ Iraqi civilians killed or wounded, 4.5 million+ Iraqi's displaced, and almost $800 billion spent or allocated to be spent was ill-advised? It would take quite a man to admit that, and Bush ain't the man.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 13:51:30
Spoken like the proven liar and admitted criminal that you are.
Happy New Year, Fiza. How much money are you going to make this year off of the backs of the criminals you hire?
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 13:58:30
January 2, 2008 1:51 PM |
Idiot.
If carter had had a spine, some intellegence and was not such a Jewish person hater, We would not have had to invade Iraq. G.H.W. Bush was forced to invade because of the liberals failed policy of Diplomacy through the un. G.W. Bush was forced to invade because of the un's inability to enforce its own "resolutions". If clintoon had been spending more time as president and less poking the fat girls, the war may have been avoided. But instead, the leftist cowards continue with their BDS because someone had a spine and said enough is enough. So FOAD you leftist scumball, and take that POS carter with you.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 13:58:37
January 2, 2008 1:51 PM |
Well as I've said about hogs post, FIZA, it's ALL your opinion, and NOT actually grounded in FACTS.
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 14:04:04
I'm basing my "opinion" on observed results. The situaion in Iraq turned markedly for the better in 2007 after BushII gave Gates and Rice the lead in directing his military and foreign policy. We all know that the observed results in Iraq were less than steller while the Cheney-Rumsfeld-Bolton-Wolfowitz neo-con approach to directing BushII's military and foreign policy remained in effect.
Posted by hogground
2008-01-02 14:17:22
Posted by StanW
January 2, 2008 1:58 PM |
Happy New Year to you too, StanW!
Criminals? We hire honest, hard-working people that are talented and/or learn quickly. Some of our immigrant workers with the right skills, ambition, and work ethic earn more than our American born workers.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 14:19:58
Posted by wyo_os_con
Not anymore, but it was a busy clandestine crossing during the Alberta beer strikes in the '80s!
Posted by NorthernCanuck
2008-01-02 14:24:17
January 2, 2008 2:19 PM |
Sure you do....
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 14:25:58
Rick to Arnold. "Hey Arnold, I've spotted some real tough cookies in the California State Prison System whom I think could kick butt on the football field. How about I send you a few names as candidates for full pardons." LOL LOL LOL
Posted by hogground
2008-01-02 14:26:32
January 2, 2008 2:19 PM
You are a criminal, horbouring fugitives, and criminals. That makes you guilty of conspiracy to commit a criminal act,which is a felony in most states, and you should be imprisioned for it. Also since you use illegals, that makes it a federal crime so you should be imprisioned in a federal penetentary such as Levenworth.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 14:28:09
By your own admission, you hire people who have...
...broken the law by entering this country illegally.
...committed document fraud by working here (although it may not be true fraud if the employer knows that are criminals and hires the anyway)
...continue to break the law by staying here
You know, Fiza, some murderers have wonderful work ethics, and many child rapists are excellent gardeners, owing to their having to bury the results of their criminal activity. Do you hire them as well? And what justification do you use for knowingly and with malice aforethought break the law?
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 14:32:13
Jim, he was suggesting that the quote be included in the top 40 list, not that it was true.
Posted by bjlillo
2008-01-02 14:32:16
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 1:51 PM |
Yes it would...if he were actually wrong. You may think he was wrong, but that does not make it so.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 14:32:53
January 2, 2008 2:19 PM |
YES criminals, if the are in violation of immigration law they are criminals. Having committed crimes, and not making good on that crime makes them criminlas. How hard is that for you to understand? Their work ethic and all else is irrelevant, only the fact that they are in this country in violation of it's law is relevant.
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 14:35:40
Posted by wyo_os_con
January 2, 2008 1:58 PM |
What are you talking about? I believe that Hussein took control over Iraq in 1979. Who was it that helped Iraq out during the disastrous Iran/Iraq war? Refresh my memory here? Was it not President Bush one?
PS, imagine if Al Gore were the current president and George Bush was now running in the Republican primaries. Would candidate Bush be saying: "Great decision to invade Iraq Al, great job, Al! you made some initial mistakes, Al, but you recovered nicely and the surge was a brilliant idea! That was great semantics calling the increase in ground troop levels a "surge"!Great job , Al! If I get elected, I will consult with you frequently".
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 14:37:57
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 14:39:40
No, he'd be saying...
"Al, you spineless piece of crap! You sat back and did nothing after 9/11, and now Saddam has nuclear weapons and threatens daily to use them on us. You are a coward of the highest level and your attempt to protect your former boss's legacy has cost millions of people world-wide their very lives. Americans, if you elect me President, the first bomb we drop on Iraq will have Al Gore tied to it!"
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 14:43:34
WHy would we have opposed Iran? think, think, think.
Posted by Dick_Nixon
2008-01-02 14:48:12
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 2:37 PM |
You do realize Fiza that US aid to Iraq prior to the gulf war was less than $200 million and that the FRENCH and RUSSIANS and supplied several HUNDRED times more aid?
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 14:54:44
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 2:37 PM |
hussein took over in 1979, Reagan was president during the iran/Iraq war. carter befriended him before leaving office because of the overthrow of the Shaw. My enemy's enemy is my friend type of thing. saddam_b_hussein used the i/I as an excuse to use WMDs on his own people.
If the pos carter had enough of a spine to assist the Shaw, the entire middle east would be a different place. If carter had actually used military force to rescue the American hostages from the iatollah kumeni(sp) the middle east would be a different place. If carter would have used military force to protect lebanon, the middle east would be a different place. if carter would have had any brains, he would have taken out arafat (instaed of giving him millions) and the mid east would be a different place.
Most of our problems in this country today can be traced back to failed policies by carter, clintoon, and the demoncritic congress prior to 1994.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 15:04:11
A man in Natchez Mississippi, shot and killed his wife thinking she was a burglar. He woke up to a dog barking and thought someone might be breaking into his home. He dons on his Rambo facade and begins to search the home with gun in tote. Meanwhile his wife has gotten out of bed and is in the kitchen. Whoa gotcha now burglar ..BANG...BANG wife is dead.
Posted by hogground
2008-01-02 15:04:48
Posted by bthewolf
January 2, 2008 2:54 PM |
What does your claim have to do with my comment? My comment was in response to this:
""If carter had had a spine, some intellegence and was not such a Jewish person hater, We would not have had to invade Iraq."
Posted by wyo_os_con
January 2, 2008 1:58 PM |"
I guess you are pleased that the Russians and French provided all that military equipment to Iraq so that it could stop those Shiite Iranian hords from overruning Iraq and the rest of the Sunni Arab controlled middle east. Otherwise, the USA would have had to step in with our military might and save Iraq and the rest of the middle east. Is that what you think?
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 15:07:07
January 2, 2008 2:32 PM |
Liberal my ass. rmiller...
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 15:07:11
But one thing all illegal immigrants have in common is a history of breaking the law. Explain to me again your justification for pardoning these people for their crime? And don't try to do it by telling me even more people break some other law; that's not the point and it sets up some bad comparisons.
Posted by aharris
2008-01-02 15:11:20
That's the good Conservative principle of personal responsibility that I love to see. Carter was definitely a fuck-up, but I tend to blame the ME's problems on Mohammed and his followers rather than a bumbling moron like Jimmy.
Posted by bjlillo
2008-01-02 15:11:26
I think that would be overblown. Illegal immigrants are a fact of our national life. We pay them and therefore we encourage them to come. And I don't blame the illegals for doing so.
But that is not the same as inviting into the country everyone who says they want to be here.
I think that our borders need to be secured. I agree with building a virtual and physical fence. I think that employers of illegals need to be fined heavily and thrown in jail for repeated violations.
I don't expect that illegal immigrants take our laws more seriously than Americans, so I think employers need to be gone after. I also think the fed gov't needs to have control of the borders so that employers have a reasonable idea of who is legal to work and who isn't.
I also think that this is a problem that all Americans need to work on. I don't think it is practicle that all illegals in the US currently could be exported, so some kind of amnesty will have to happen. But only after the borders are secure, so that the American people can be sure that the people they hire are here legally and they have some way to confirm that.
I don't think this is a problem that benefits either political party. Liberals and conservatives have lots to negotiate here, and making extremist statements like 'racist' or 'un-American' do not help us figure out what needs to happen.
$.02
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 15:17:43
You beat me to it aharris, but you miss the most important point of their argument: this association is done on purpose. If you have to argue the ligitimate problems caused by illegal immigration instead of just ascribing it to racism, and thus a very negative and argument ending motivation, the people that want it most would lose the argument. Indubidably every liberal I have spoken to that claims racism motivates those that are against immigration (they do not even care to differentiate between legal and illegal immigration and again on purpose) has been for unrestricted immigration primarily because they see that changing the country drastically enough to marginalize those that do not share their ideology (big government socialism) and overcoming the current slide into oblivion of their movement. This is not an accident it is by design.
aharris: But one thing all illegal immigrants have in common is a history of breaking the law. Explain to me again your justification for pardoning these people for their crime? And don't try to do it by telling me even more people break some other law; that's not the point and it sets up some bad comparisons.
The law be damned. The objective here is to change the fabric of the US in such a way that these collectivists can take power permanently. Their motivation is nothing but a desire to stick it to the US as it exists now. screw them all.
Posted by AlexinCT
2008-01-02 15:24:30
Funny how you glossed over two Republican Presidents during that time (1980-1992.) I'm sure you'll place blame on Democrats somehow.
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 15:26:18
January 2, 2008 3:17 PM |
There's some people that take the illegal immigration issue too far. I supported Huckabee because I liked his idea of giving the children of illegal immigrants an education. How do we get rid of the structural problems that plague immigrant communities? Let them get educated. Let them become well-functioning members of society.
Immigration is a problem, it is not a plague. It doesn't allow terrorists to come over unchecked. But saying that we should be able to know who comes over and hold them accountable to pay taxes, to pay into social security and medicare, to pay into our education system not only benefits us, it benefits the workers-they'll get minimum wage and the respect of the American life. I like to think the taxes I pay are a down-payment for the schooling I received and the entry fee for the protests I've been to. Let's allow them to have the same abilities; megalomania and latent racism aside, nobody rides for free. We welcome the huddled masses, but it ain't free.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 15:30:23
January 2, 2008 3:04 PM |
I have used firearms twice to stop crimes from happening to me. You just have to be sure of your target before you pull a firearm on someone.
Posted by Dick_Nixon
2008-01-02 15:37:39
Funny how you want to blame Reagan & Bush I for dealing with a bad situation caused by a problem created by Carter in the first place. Had Jimmy not let the Shah fall for whatever misguided reason, we would not have to deal with an Iran that is run by lunatics or communists (the original insurgents of the Iranian revolution where pro-Soviet students financed and trained by the KGB that had the carpet yanked out from under them by Khomeini), ready to build a nuke, and likely ready to use it too. Reagan was trying to win the Cold War. Bush I, in hindsight, made a mistake to leave Saddam in place. But Clinton said the same things Bush did after 9-11 made it impossible to ignore Saddam even if most libs now pretend otherwise.
The left loves to bandy this lie that Saddam was our boy when he never was, but we should never let them get away with it. These are usually the same idiots that loved the USSR and wanted it to win the Cold War (and do not let any amount of historical revision where they now pretend they were on the right side of that conflict create any doubt that this is what these morons wanted) to bgin with. You know the ones that cry foul and accuse us of being torturers while wearing a Che Guevarra T-shirt and claiming he is their revolutionary hero. For those of you too stupid to know otherwise, Che was Castro's butcher, tortured & killed thousands, and when he could not find more victims in Cuba, went motorcycling accross South America looking for more people to torture & kill.
Posted by AlexinCT
2008-01-02 15:39:55
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 3:07 PM |"
Dude, we DID.
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 15:40:15
January 2, 2008 3:34 PM |
John Lee Malvo [sic.. his name was Lee Boyd Malvo] was a psychopathic teenager from Jamaica. If you think we're going to get every illegal immigrant and by doing so save lives, I've got a bridge in Tijuana for sale.
And before you try to swallow that one, just think--the 9/11 terrorists were here legally. National security is important. But if you think terrorists are going to try to cross the border of Mexico, risk life and limb, risk trying to get caught when they could just as easily get legitimate student visas, you're the one missing the issue.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 15:43:45
Enforcing the borders is racist? How so? don't most countries do it? Aren't they racist too?
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 15:44:58
January 2, 2008 1:51 PM
1900.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-02 15:47:03
Posted by jimb123
January 2, 2008 3:19 PM |
What a gulla bull
What a nin cow poop
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 15:47:46
Posted by rmiller
January 2, 2008 3:44 PM |"
OF course not.
The accusation kicks in only when Americans want to do it.
Oh, and my wife is an immigrant, a LEGAL immigrant, who hates the open border types with a white hot passion.
"Let them do what I had to do."
-Scottish Kate
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 15:48:59
Posted by bobma12
January 2, 2008 3:30 PM
This looks to me like you are confusing illegal and legal immigration. LEGAL immigration is not a problem. Thousands of people come here LEGALLY from all over the world every year. They work, they pay takes, the assimillate, they become AMERICANS. Those who criminally sneak across our borders do not assimilate, they don't want to. They huddle in closed communities, which creates crime, poverty, and costs the taxpayer millions. There are a great many illegals that are criminals weather that be gang members, those that work to support terrorists such as the ira, hezbolla, al quida, or the demoncrites (/sarc?). I do not agree with Huckabee that we should give illegals the benefits that should belong to citizens and those who followed the rules.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 15:49:37
Posted by jules
2008-01-02 15:50:35
Posted by sneaky_snipe
2008-01-02 15:56:11
Posted by jules
January 2, 2008 3:50 PM | "
Spanish is a race?
Who knew?
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 15:56:43
While Spanish is not a race, and neither is Hispanic, putting it in those terms is a slur and quite derogatory.
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 16:03:56
January 2, 2008 3:49 PM
Right, illegal immigrants. Sorry for the confusion. I agree that they take services that I paid for for free. But leaving them in the shadows doesn't help. Let them get driver's licenses so we know where they are and can pay taxes. Let their children get higher education, so they won't end up in a gang or in prison or like Lee Boyd Malvo.
Immigration isn't an issue of kicking them all out, because that isn't really practical, and wouldn't it also just increase the bureaucracies that require earmarks? We can't let them run free. They have to be held accountable. But we do have a place for them in America. If we treat them like unwelcome refuse then they will act like unwelcome refuse.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:04:31
True.
Not true.
We're the ones wanting to actually discuss the issue here. The ones spoiling the issue are the ones throwing around the "racism" accusation because they aren't willing to defend their ideas honestly.
Posted by bjlillo
2008-01-02 16:07:31
January 2, 2008 3:43 PM |
If you think that trying to stop illegal immigrants and deporting them when caught won't save lives and lower crime, then you must own that bridge.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-02 16:07:46
January 2, 2008 3:26 PM
Happy new year Vega.
No I won't blame demoncrites in general for the failures of the carter admin. Just kennedy, carter, o'neil, and burger.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 16:09:44
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 3:07 PM |
Well you asked this:
So I responded
DOES THAT MAKE SENSE NOW, fiza? Do you get it? Should go I into more detail?
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 16:09:54
I think more important questions would be how many of them overstayed their visas and what did we learn from that experience that would help us stop it from happening again.
Posted by bjlillo
2008-01-02 16:12:15
Educating people and allowing them to get better paying jobs will also save lives and lower crime. If we give illegals drivers licenses, they'll be able to get insurance. We'll be able to have a database of them, so if they commit a crime we won't let them back in the country after deporting them. Kick out the welfare bumbs and criminals and gang-bangers, but help the ones whose parents live in factories by affording them the ability to get out of the ghetto, pay into our tax system, and raise healthy families.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:15:28
Posted by bobma12
January 2, 2008 3:30 PM |
Before 9/11, I would have agreed. It is now a plague, and time for us to recognise it as such.
The rest of what you say applies to legal immigrants. And those I have no problem with. As a first generation American immigrant, I have a lot of sympathy for all those who want to apply. I can't and don't blame them. But the world is different now, and they, and I, have to acknowledge that.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 16:15:35
I dislike fish-belly white Irish illegal immigrants as much as I dislike brown Mexican illegals.
So take your collective charges of racism, all you reactionary leftists, and shove them up your collective ass.
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 16:16:51
January 2, 2008 4:04 PM |
I'll tell you what, you can pony up all the tax dollars to pay for this crap, we'll let you.
You want to give this stuff to them for free. From the news articles that I receiently read, they are breaking the backs of local school districts and hospitals are having to close because they can't afford to stay open.
Illegals are costing this country 456 billion a year. For every dollar that they pay in, it's costing the U.S. Citizens 3.
Not to mention that since they are willing to work for next to nothing, it's depresing wages that companies would normally pay.
If they are here illegally they need to be sent home and need to wait thier turn to come in to this country with the proper documentation. And we need to hit these companies hard for hiring them in the first place.
If you want them here we can put them up at your house.
Posted by gfchicago
2008-01-02 16:18:02
...says the guy who insisted madrassa implied some sort of Islamic fundamentalist school.
Did you ever think that wyo is just ignorant of the real Spanish words so he made up his own kind of like you did the other day?
Posted by bjlillo
2008-01-02 16:19:05
It is already possible to do all of this, Bob. It is called "Legal Immigration". The people we are discussing here made a choice not to go that route. They went the underground, back-door, ILLEGAL method. And we are not in favor of rewarding bad or criminal behavior.
They should go back to they homes and re-enter the country legally. Once they prove they are serious about following our laws, THEN AND ONLY THEN can we discuss perks. Until then, they are criminals and should be treated as such (Arizona!!!!)
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 16:23:26
Wait a second, are you really trying to say that the people who live here legally, pay taxes, and who want to follow the laws of the country should support those who break the law?
If we give illegals drivers licenses, they'll be able to get insurance.
Break the law!! Get a reward!! Get a license!! Be able to vote!!
We'll be able to have a database of them, so if they commit a crime we won't let them back in the country after deporting them.
We are deporting some of them now. A database won't prevent them from coming back into the country illegally. Illegal immigrants have no problem with breaking the law to get here initially, so there is nothing to say they won't break the law to get back here.
Kick out the welfare bumbs and criminals and gang-bangers, but help the ones whose parents live in factories by affording them the ability to get out of the ghetto, pay into our tax system, and raise healthy families.
We are willing to help them out of the ghetto by sending them back to the place they came from.
Or is it your position that they cannot improve their own countries so we should let them help "improve" the United States?
And the first step in that "improvement" is to break the law in crossing the border illegally.
Gee, that makes a whole lot of sense.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-02 16:24:02
The thing all these reasonable arguments have in common is the same starting point: enforce our border laws.
Very interesting how keeping illegals out in the first place is somehow not racist, but wanting to kick them out after they have been here illegally for a number of years is magically racist.
Reminds me of TA's twisted logic on abortion: life begins at conception, but the value of that life is somehow worth less until it exits the womb fully formed. In this case, "life" begins at the border, but it's worth more and gains validity the longer the person has lived here--whether it began legally or not.
Posted by jules
2008-01-02 16:24:07
The rest of what you say applies to legal immigrants. And those I have no problem with. As a first generation American immigrant, I have a lot of sympathy for all those who want to apply. I can't and don't blame them. But the world is different now, and they, and I, have to acknowledge that.
Don't get me wrong, immigration is a problem. But there is a lot of demagoguing going on by some people. There's other solutions to the problem other than throwing everyone out. We should work to get these people out of the shadows, to have public records of them, and the ones that won't get out of the shadows should leave. We can't afford an open border policy. If my child was sick, I wouldn't want an illegal immigrant to be in front of me in line who hasn't paid for these services. I'm far away from the problem, so it is hard for me to understand the price paid. But I do know what's fair, and the current system is not. I just think we, as Republicans, need better solutions than throwing everyone out. I wish it were practical. I wish it'd be beneficial. Let's throw out the criminals and the lazy bastards, but let the ones who have jobs stay, and if they haven't been paying taxes, make them pay back taxes. If they commit a crime, send them to jail. They shouldn't get special treatment, but they also shouldn't be so villainized.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:25:32
They have already committed crimes, Bob. By illegally coming here, by falsefying documents to get here and work here, by illegally taking services meant for citizens, etc.
They are already criminals, no villianization necessary.
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 16:28:49
I guess even our founding fathers had a twisted notion about some lives being worth less than othes since some folk only counted as 2/3 of a person when it came to apportioning representatation. And guess what? Regarding that issue which was a main driving force of the Revolution (taxation without representation) the unborn counted for naught in their minds.
Posted by hogground
2008-01-02 16:32:54
Agreed. But it is harder for a migrant worker with nothing but the clothes on his back to hire an immigration lawyer, to travel back and forth from Mexico, to wait months and pay fees for their visas. Plus, most of them don't have an education, don't speak English, don't have TV's, and have no way of understanding how to come here legally. It's why immigration from Canada isn't a problem. The quality of life and language issues aren't prevalent.
That said, the current system doesn't punish illegals and doesn't give them incentive to become citizens. If we're to bring them out of the shadows, making it harder to become a citizen and reducing the benefits given to them isn't the solution, ya know? The most important issue to me is the fact that they're here without paying taxes, that they're getting welfare checks and filling our schools without paying a cent. I don't see an easy solution, and I don't see mass deportation, especially when they'll just come back, as the right solution.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:34:13
First, you are an idiot.
Second, it was 3/5, not 2/3.
Third, counting a black person as a whole person was the Pro-Slavery position, because it only applied to apportionment (as you stated) and would have given the Slave States more representation.
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 16:39:46
Yet they know how to come here illegally, so some sort knowledge about immigration laws is available to them. Additionally, since when is ignorance of the law an excuse for breaking it? You really don't think that the people comming here illegally don't know they are breaking the law, do you?
especially when they'll just come back, as the right solution.
Didn't you advocate earlier that we should deport people and not let them back in? Yet here you are saying that they will come back no matter what. I don't see the solution as one of "if we make their illegal activities legal and beneficial to them, that will make the problem of illegal immigration disappear."
It hasn't worked in the past and won't work in the future.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-02 16:42:31
Yes, they broke the law. But that doesn't stop the argument in its tracks. They broke the law, but what do we do about it? Kick them all out? We can't get them all, that'll cost us BILLIONS, and they'll just come back. So what I propose is find some way to give an easier path to citizenship-that is, the ones who want it, the ones who will pay taxes, the ones who are willing to go to college to further themselves, the ones who want to get themselves out of the ghetto and out of the gangs. By giving them a special driver's license (one that won't allow them on planes, ones that won't allow them to vote, one that will easily identify them. I had a driver's license when I was 16. I couldn't vote with it. I couldn't join the Army with it. Because it had my birthday on it.) we can bring them out of the shadows, we can have them pay taxes.
You also said...
We are willing to help them out of the ghetto by sending them back to the place they came from.
If the ghetto was better than life in Mexico, they wouldn't have come here in the first place. But I agree, another solution to this problem is helping increase the quality of life in Mexico.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:42:36
Yes I did. And it does. Just like "La Raza" may have some connotations that have little to do with it's original meaning.
I did nothing of the kind. Making fun of Spanish by adding "o's" to the end of every word only weakens your side of the issue. Spanish has a Latin root, same as English.
"Madrassa" means school in Arabic, but also means a school that teach strict fundamental Islam the way the term has been positioned in the minds of Americans. Especially in the context of the Obama mud-slinging. That's not making a word up.
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 16:44:14
Yeah, following the law is just tooooooo hard, Bob. Let's see how that works in real life.
It is just too hard to work and make a living. Perhaps I will just rob a few banks, call myself an "undocumented customer" and demand they give me a free checking account and a new toster.
It's just too hard to meet a nice girl. I think I'll just grab the first one I see and have sex with her. I can be an "undocumented boyfriend" and move in with her.
What do you think about those examples, Bob
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 16:46:22
Posted by Left_Turn
2008-01-02 16:46:29
They are already criminals, no villianization necessary.
You're absolutely right, Stan. We can't have them here living in the shadows. It's a threat to American life, it's a threat to the American economy, it's a threat to the safety of my children and their education (not my children specifically. I live in a town where if there was an illegal immigrant, I'd be shocked). I just think we should look at more solutions, solutions other than "throw them all in jail" because we're still losing money doing that. If Mexicans want to assimilate, if they want to be able to speak English and pay taxes and not commit crimes (other than the original sin, if you will) they should be able to, and easily, too.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:48:06
They raped a woman, but what do we do about it? Kick them all out? We can't get them all, that'll cost us BILLIONS, and they'll just come back.
So why bother enforcing the law, Bob? Why bother having laws at all?
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 16:49:58
January 2, 2008 4:46 PM |
Thanks Stan that is Keybord no 3 LOL
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 16:51:56
If they wanted to assimilate and be Americans, they would follow our laws.
And you need to stop this B.S. about living in the shadows. Murderers live in the shadows, drug dealers live in the shadows. And we arrest and imprison them. It *IS* a threat. And it shoudl be treated as a threat, not as a reason to buy the amm ice cream and a new TV!
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 16:53:30
It is just too hard to work and make a living. Perhaps I will just rob a few banks, call myself an "undocumented customer" and demand they give me a free checking account and a new toster.
It's just too hard to meet a nice girl. I think I'll just grab the first one I see and have sex with her. I can be an "undocumented boyfriend" and move in with her.
What do you think about those examples, Bob
For some people, the first option is what they'd do... including a lot of Mexican immigrants.
But to follow your examples, and if you applied my solution to that problem (following the categorical imperative, in fact) I'd say that immigration is a good metaphor for robbery, because they are robbing us, every day. Our medicare system, our education system, our tax dollars. So the solution would be to say, listen, if you rob our fucking bank again, we're going to lock you in the basement or kick your ass out, and make damn sure you never come back. If you'd like to stay and open an account and pay the dividends, well that'll help not only you, it'll help the bank and thus all the other customers.
I don't see the correlation between rape and illegal immigration, though.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:54:33
Stan, I'm sure, as you know, not all crimes carry the same penalty. In high school, I smoked pot. A lot. I even drank before I was 18, and once, I went to a sub shop, and they forgot I paid. I just walked right out. But if I told a police officer about it, I don't think I'd end up in cuffs, or on a boat back to Ireland, where my father came from.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 16:57:39
And since we KNOW that they have already robbed us, why should we give them any break at all. Do the police say to the bank robber, "Well, since this is the first time you robbed the bank, we'll let you go with a warning. Not only that, if you'll deposit the money you stole from us here at this branch, we'll give you a really good rate of return."?
You still want to reward known and provable criminal behavior. You also labor under the ignorant assumption that if we are just nice to them and give them what they want, they will instantly turn into law-abiding, tax-paying good citizens.
Sorry, that opportunity was there for them and they pissed on it. They deserve no more consideration that the local drug dealer. When caught, pay for your crimes.
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 17:00:42
How about we let people become citizens--IMMEDIATELY, no paperwork required, if they agree to join the Army? It'd help low recruitment numbers, the GWOT, it'd help them get jobs when they're out. Anybody?
Even people not of military age could do this. Why let them pick grapes for scraps and not pay taxes when they could be scrubbing toilets at Fort Bragg?
Just ideas.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 17:00:53
it's a good guestion. So the illegal immigrants don't follow the laws. Big deal. Neither do Americans.
That's the heart of the question when it comes to illegal immigrants.
If Americans don't follow the law, why should illegals?
That is why I think the strongest deterents for illegal immigrants is that they not be hired to earn money.
Go after employers.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 17:06:13
January 2, 2008 5:00 PM
I guess, then, there's just a fundamental difference in our moral compass. I see illegal immigration the same way I see marijuana. It's sortof a gateway crime. If Albert Einstein was an illegal immigrant, would you throw him in jail? Of course not. But gangbangers are a different story, because they kill, they rob. Their parents don't pay into the tax system, and the kids that do go through college do it for free, while I can't even get a tax break if I want to send my child to private school.
I'm looking for solutions too. I just see the best solution differently than you do.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 17:07:11
January 2, 2008 4:19 PM |
Actually B is was being fecisious and sardonic.
They broke the law, but what do we do about it? Kick them all out? We can't get them all, that'll cost us BILLIONS,
Posted by bobma12
January 2, 2008 4:42 PM |
This is a lie told by the left. As seen in Arizona, Colorado, and Oklahoma when the laws are tough and enforced, the illegals self deport. Do you think that sheriff Joe Apaio is going to have to fill his tent city with illegals in the next few months, not likely when employers will be taking their place.
The left claims racism everytime they do not get their way. True 90% of illegals are of a south American origin, but the debate is not limited to the people from the south. There are illegals here from China, Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Baltics. They too must be deported. Hiring one of them is also a criminal act, what is racist about telling them thay are criminals? The difference is that the one from Russia, the Baltics, China, etc do not protest with their flags on the streets of the U.S.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 17:07:22
Your solution is to reward criminal behavior, because enforcing the law is too hard.
So in that sense, *YES*, we disagree on the solution, and always will. You get more of the behavior you reward. You way gets MORE illegal immigration, mine will get less.
Understand now?
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 17:13:07
January 2, 2008 4:48 PM |
They will SELF deport if we just crackdown on businesses that hire them. $500,000 per illegal on the payroll, will cause them to quit hiring, without jobs the illigals will head back home. And the cost to taxpayers would be negligble when compared to the savings.
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 17:13:09
Oh yeah they are demoncrites and get a pass.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 17:14:06
Don't get me wrong. Just because I argue for more solutions other than "kick 'em all out" doesn't mean I don't want tough regulation, a secure border, and as little undocumented illegals as possible. We don't disagree. I'm not a Democrat (though I've actually met some sensible democrats who take this issue seriously) and I think Bill Richardson is a buffoon for saying we ought not build a fence. I just don't want to be overly simplistic.
The left claims racism everytime they do not get their way. True 90% of illegals are of a south American origin, but the debate is not limited to the people from the south. There are illegals here from China, Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Baltics. They too must be deported. Hiring one of them is also a criminal act, what is racist about telling them thay are criminals? The difference is that the one from Russia, the Baltics, China, etc do not protest with their flags on the streets of the U.S.
Exactly. If someone thinks it's because of racism, ask the person whose school district is bankrupt, who can't get labor work. Laotians met the same resistance in California after the Vietnam War and the mass immigrations that caused. It's not fear of Latinos (well... not always... I've definitely heard some people take it too far...) but rather fear of some people who shouldn't be here being treated unfairly. It's not about racism with sensible liberals and the majority of conservatives.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 17:16:57
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 17:20:47
January 2, 2008 5:13 PM
I don't think $500,000 is enough. Threaten jailtime for anyone you can prove knew about it and didn't report it in the company. Ruin their reputation. Do something like sex offender lists, so when they get out of jail, they have to report to everyone that they were caught exploiting illegals.
If companies are hiring illegals to help the bottom line, make it not worth it for them. It'll make immigrants self-deport, and offer jobs to LEGAL immigrants, as well as Americans who belong here.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 17:22:53
but if you try to strictly enforce marijuana laws, you're gonna have revolution.
It will be a very slow-moving, good-natured, lazy revolution, but a revolution nonetheless.
You don't want hippies storming the streets, seizing any snack food that gets in their way.
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 17:23:35
January 2, 2008 5:23 PM
Plus, the all-powerful Frito Lay lobby wouldn't allow it.
Back when I smoked pot, I thought that not only was it not a bad thing, but I also thought that everyone should do it. That it'd solve the world's problems. Now that I'm out of that haze, I think that pot is a stupid thing that driven individuals don't do. But hey, sometimes, if I just rented Anchorman and I have a few Twinkies in the cabinet... why the hell not?
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 17:27:28
Posted by n_obrain
January 2, 2008 5:20 PM |
That would be true, if there were a straw man to fire at.
However, there is actually a debate to had that does not include strawmen.
Illegal aliens are a question for all of us...too bad they do not equate to targets for f-15s.
This may be an issue worth talking about on a larger scale.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 17:27:58
January 2, 2008 5:13 PM |
I have gone over this so many times I think I am going to scream. I will ask this question again. Do you know that right now it is illegal for an employer to fire someone because of there illegal status? The employer can be and are sued for it. The discrimination laws of this country need to be changed before you put the responsibilities of the federal government on my shoulders. Oh do I get a tax break or pay for doing our governments job for it?? IF you are going to fine me 500,000 for each person who has given me forged documents… You might want to give me my rights back first… Think before you post please....
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 17:28:12
January 2, 2008 5:27 PM |
What are you suggesting?
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 17:31:42
January 2, 2008 5:27 PM |
Oh, please, this thread has enough straw to create a French impressionist farm scene.
And it's all from the reactionary leftists.
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 17:32:13
It certainly puts the foot on the brake.
They broke the law, but what do we do about it?
We do the same thing we do with any other criminal - we make them accountable for the crime.
Kick them all out? We can't get them all, that'll cost us BILLIONS,
It is already costing us billions with them here illegally.
and they'll just come back.
But you keep saying that we should get rid of the "bad" illegal immigrants. Why should we believe that they won't come back? How is it that you believe that rewarding illegal activity is going to slow down that illegal activity?
So what I propose is find some way to give an easier path to citizenship-that is,
You don't see any problem with rewarding someone who does something illegally as opposed to someone who does something legally? Someone who is on a waiting list to come into the country legally is bypassed and passed over for someone who comes here illegally?
If the ghetto was better than life in Mexico, they wouldn't have come here in the first place.
Now you are attributing the motives to their illegal activities? Are you really saying that looking to live a "better life" gives you the right to break the law? Taken to its logical conclusion, that means that theft and robbery are acceptable because the person who is stealing wants a "better life."
But I agree, another solution to this problem is helping increase the quality of life in Mexico.
I have problems with this. The point seems to be that the people that are coming here can't or don't want to make their country better, so they should use the resources and money of this country to reward them for abandoning their country and breaking the law and coming here.
So the question is, as they are part of the problem in their native country, why are we accepting them as a part of the "solution" here in the US?
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-02 17:36:10
January 2, 2008 5:32 PM |
Pint of gas and a match. Lock and load.
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 17:36:28
This is all just a song and dance that's played over and over. We have three choices; a) take a hardline approach, which cannot be implemented because at least about a half of the country will oppose it, b) take the extreme liberal approach and let everyone in and make everyone a citizen, which cannot be because of the same as above or c) use the above two to garner support and further drive a wedge within the American public.
In a better world, we would have a "d," form a compromise where neither side will get all they want, but it would reform an outdated and incompetent system. Neither side wants that, because that would neutralize an effective campaign tactic. Everyone is either a amnesty-bitch or racist-pig. I'm sick of it. Real leadership persuades people to agree to something they would not ordinarily agree on. Our President had the best opportunity to do this, with both moderate Dems & Reps forming a coalition. He failed miserably. Not because his plan was ill-conceived (though it was,) but because he did not have the leadership skills and clout to form a consensus.
So to my right-wing friends, who is going to be the bigger people here and reach across the aisle? If the Dems gain ground in Congress, they have no reason to compromise. The Reps will need the immigration issue to fundraise and gain power back (so they can do nothing about it.) Can a real President please stand up?
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 17:39:28
January 2, 2008 5:28 PM |
Man, I can see why your head might explode. Honestly, I can see your frustration.
On the other hand, I can see the lax understanding.
That is why I can say that conservatives and liberals need to start talking about what they agree on.
It's not that you are are wrong...nor why those who disagree are right...
The question is, at this point, how do we agree?
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 17:39:36
Right. My way of making them accountable? Make them pay taxes--taxes including the taxes they SHOULD have been paying. We should make them pay a fine.
But you keep saying that we should get rid of the "bad" illegal immigrants. Why should we believe that they won't come back? How is it that you believe that rewarding illegal activity is going to slow down that illegal activity?
Because part of my plan is strict border control. Hey, maybe even hire some low-income kids from the ghetto to do it...
You don't see any problem with rewarding someone who does something illegally as opposed to someone who does something legally? Someone who is on a waiting list to come into the country legally is bypassed and passed over for someone who comes here illegally?
Of course there's a problem with it. Of course there is. But we'd be rewarding them with citizenship and rewarding ourselves with workers, tax dollars, and fines, as well as back-taxes which they shoulda been paying the whole time.
Now you are attributing the motives to their illegal activities? Are you really saying that looking to live a "better life" gives you the right to break the law? Taken to its logical conclusion, that means that theft and robbery are acceptable because the person who is stealing wants a "better life."
I'm not excusing it, I was stating a matter of fact.
I have problems with this. The point seems to be that the people that are coming here can't or don't want to make their country better, so they should use the resources and money of this country to reward them for abandoning their country and breaking the law and coming here.
If you were an illegal immigrant, why bother crossing the border if you've got a decent paying job, available health care and education? You wouldn't. They have no other option. They're doing it for survival. So if we help the structural problems in Mexico, I think it'll at least partially discourage the flood of illegals. Nothing different than being a compassionate conservative.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 17:44:46
We got exactly what you are asking for in the 1986 amnesty bill. It left us with the mess we have today. Why would we want to repeat the mistakes of the past?
Posted by bjlillo
2008-01-02 17:46:02
January 2, 2008 5:39 PM |
Build the fence first. We all agree on that? Secure the border first.
Then we can limit the "coming back" problem when they leave (deported).
Just like a project, lets do it in phases.
PHASE I Build the fence (dual) and enforce the border.
PHASE II Open for discussion.
Posted by Living_Right_in_CA
2008-01-02 17:46:07
January 2, 2008 5:39 PM |
Hey I would love to be able to turn these people over to ICE. If I do I open the door for a law suit. It comes down to that. The liberals in congress have made it illegal for me to report illegal activity. They passes the bullshit we call discrimination bullcrap.
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 17:46:40
Posted by ninerdog
January 2, 2008 5:28 PM |
I did niner, part of the enforcement is making the WHOLE situation work. C'mon Niner I'm on your side, and we both know the whole fiasco is just that.
Posted by bthewolf
2008-01-02 17:46:53
So why in hell do we want them here, anyway? By the way, it doesn't take a Harvard law degree to understand that crossing the border without permission is a crime. That's why they pay coyotes to bring them in or sneak across the unfenced areas, through tunnels, etc. If they didn't realise they were doing something wrong, they'd walk right up to the Border Patrol with a big smile and say "Hola!"
Posted by CavalierX
2008-01-02 17:50:15
Not really. You worked hard to earn those labels. Step one was agreeing with the Linda Chavez nonsense in the first place.
Posted by CavalierX
2008-01-02 17:53:40
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
Are you really wondering why you are not taken seriously.
What is wrong with legal immigration? and a fence for God's sake? AND the question was brought up before, why is it the Mexican border that is the problem? No one seems to give a shit about Canada.
Posted by mipt
2008-01-02 17:55:00
So you're telling us that you're a low-life burnout druggie thief with less moral sense than a kumquat. You're not buying yourself any credibility around here.
Posted by CavalierX
2008-01-02 17:56:03
LOL...good image.
I know that some liberals and some conservatives dont agree with my analysis.
Never claimed to some kind of political guru.
Yet still, I find it hard to acknowledge that any hard right core candidate or any hard left core candidate will win.
And when it come to illegal aliens, neither party will step up and say what is what. One will say the workers do what others won't., and one will say the workers will do what other Americans won't.
Is there any difference?
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 17:57:08
January 2, 2008 5:23 PM
Okay this one got me funny looks from the laughter.
Posted by D-Vega
January 2, 2008 5:39 PM
I see the big problem is that we tried the compromise back in 86. It did not work. In a post 911 world, the hardline approach is the only one that is acceptable to 70% of the U.S citizenry. Secure the border, it is not hard, we have the National Guard, border patrol, and private citizens that are capable of securing the border. Enforce the laws that are currently on the books and the problem is already solved. There is no need for the issue to be political. Pardon the border patrol agents that shot a drug dealer, make enforcement of our border unprosecutable, and fine employers who knowingly hire illegals. (key word being knowingly). Deport all illegals without a trial, no appeals, trials are for citizens and those here legally.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-02 17:58:10
You mean President Reagan was an amnesty-bitch? Can't believe it.
And if you are saying that America, the greatest country to ever see the face of the earth, cannot reasonably solve a very complicated problem, than you too are buying into the fervor-mongering of the right. It's the all or nothing approach that will doom us all. If you were faced with a plan that would solve the influx of illegals, but give amnesty to millions, would you reject it in favor of the status quo?
I'm looking for a DIFFERENT idea. Something that is not the blind mantra of Illegal. Illegal. Illegal. or Amnesty. Amnesty. Amnesty.
We can put a man on the moon and give an 80 year old man a hard-on pill, but we cannot come to a consensus on lowering the amount of illegals in this country? It's nonsense. It's time we started thinking for ourselves and not following people who's best interest is to keep this going as long as possible.
Sure, there are too many Mexicans. But if you think there's some magic wand that will apprehend millions of them, reform the immigration laws, build a 2,000 mile wall, and replace the ensuing labor hole, especially without the benefit of a super-majority, you are deluding yourself. A real leader, a smart leader, a great leader could solve this. Sure, the far left & right will be pissed, but they are NOT the majority. The majority of this country still wants their lettuce at $1 a head, cheap landscaping & housing construction, but don't want to see Mexicans on every corner. Digging your heels in will stop nothing. NOTHING.
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 18:01:38
They know it's illegal. They just don't have the resources or knowledge to be able to get here legally.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 18:07:07
I imagine so. You don't want to hear either of those words, but they describe the situation well: they are illegal and breaking the law, and amnesty is what it's called when you officially erase that.
The problem isn't that we're unable to come up with a better idea, it's that you don't like the way to fix this.
Posted by Christopher_Taylor
2008-01-02 18:07:57
January 2, 2008 5:56 PM
I hope that was sarcastic, because if it wasn't, you're a judgmental prick and you're castigating me for doing something that most people have done. I already have one mother, I don't need another moralizing prude telling me the choices I've made are wrong.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 18:10:02
January 2, 2008 5:46 PM |
Hey I have been around and around on this.. Making the whole work.. (I am not referring to hillary so don't even go there) Dude I am right there with ya. You want people like me to enforce some law about hiring.. Done. Give me the tools and the ability to not be sued. I am so there. IF anything in our constitution has been more violated by our government it is this.. IMHO. "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." My next question is are we there yet??
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-02 18:12:10
January 2, 2008 6:07 PM
Chris, let me submit this to you. I think it's a good solution.
Why don't we say, listen, if you want to enroll in the armed forces, you and your family can come here. Your mom and dad will still have to pay taxes. It'll be a fast-track to citizenship. No forms. No fines. No legal fees. It'd ostensibly solve two problems; low recruitment numbers in the Army as well as making incentives that WE like for potential immigrants.
We could even do the same thing to people we catch here illegally. We'll say Listen, you can have your son or daughter join the Army, or your ass will be scrubbing for pesos in Mexico.
Posted by bobma12
2008-01-02 18:14:06
I did not excuse Carter. I just observed that Wyos did not mention Reagan is his analysis. Why didn't Reagan attack Iran or Lebanon? Maybe because he was a little smarter then other people.
He was our boy. We supported him against the Ayatollah. He WAS our boy. Whether or not that was appropriate is debatable.
I agree with you, Alex. But this has little to do with the rise of Islamic extremism and who's responsible. The FACT is that Americans wanted nothing to do with warring with muslims. They had no desire to fight them as long as the oil flowed. 9/11 changed that, but in many wrong ways. Now it was pick an Arab asshole, any Arab asshole. Sadam was A-hole #2, since the Taliban was first and Khomenei was dead. we thought if we picked the top a-holes, then the other a-holes would fall in line, but as a cultural phenomenon, that does not happen with the crazy muslims. They are designed to feed on hostility, rather than choose peace. The more we put in, the more they will fight. Maybe not in Iraq. Maybe not in Lebanon, but somewhere.
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 18:15:40
ONLY when you get it for nothing. A penalty is not amnesty. You see how I explained that? I'm sure you'll still call it amnesty, even though it's not. And that's the problem.
Your idea of fixing it. And I'm sure you believe yours is the best and only idea. And that, again, is the problem. You will not get exactly what you want. And though you may disagree with me and think I'm totally wrong, the FACT remains that I have an equal say in the matter. I would be willing to compromise. Would you?
Posted by D-Vega
2008-01-02 18:22:51
He and Ted Kennedy both.
I think I'm pretty reasonable when it comes to illegal immigration DV. I want to see two effective fences built (not put into a bill to be built at some point in the future) and after they are in place, then I'm open to discussion on what to do with the illegal aliens already here.
This whole mess is the government's fault for not enforcing its own laws to begin with. It also didn't take the Most Ethical Congress Ever® long to gut the funding for the border fence that the Repubs were dragging their heels on. They have no credibility on this issue which is why I would insist on the fence being complete before addressing any other issue.
You do us a disservice by characterizing the discussion like that. It's not much better than the morons who whine about racism.
Sweet. Well, when this generation's Reagan (a once-in-a-lifetime leader) shows up and we have defeated Islamo-fascism, I guess we'll have what you describe. Until then, it's up to us mere mortals to sort out our differences and figure out an effective solution.
Posted by bjlillo
2008-01-02 18:35:52
Posted by bjlillo
January 2, 2008 2:32 PM |
You're probably right, upon further review.
Though his posts have been removed, I apologize for getting it wrong. Took the general attitude being displayed and assumed.
Posted by jimg
2008-01-02 18:49:58
You need to secure the border so you truly control in and out traffic first.
Then you need to enforce the laws on the books as written.
Finally, you can take a look at the immigration laws in action to try to streamline them.
Once you have parts one and two in operation, you can start your guest worker program. Offer it to those waiting in the legal line to immigrate before any others and work your way down the list ending with the ones leaving the country they entered illegally. The first ones in line are the people who have been waiting and respecting the laws no matter how imperfect and they should be the ones rewarded with a fast track before anyone else should get it.
And why should shakey, corrupt Central American governments be able to prop themselves up at our expense by sending their potential malcontents to the US? Maybe if we got a handle on our immigration, they'd go demonstrate in the proper streets with their flags. Let them take all that social anger out on the proper entities - the governments who made their lives crap in the first place. Change for the better cannot happen without the will of the people, and if the will of the people immigrates illegally, that's a lot of wasted energy when they march to demand rights they don't legally deserve here. They'd do better to go home and demand those rights there.
Posted by aharris
2008-01-02 18:56:27
A fine? You want to tax and fine these poor, illegal immigrants? Furthermore, how does a fine make it "right" with the people that are immigrating legally? How does a "fine" prevent someone from coming back if they are deported? And what makes you think that they will pay a "fine" anyway?
Because part of my plan is strict border control. Hey, maybe even hire some low-income kids from the ghetto to do it...
I agree that stricter border patrol is required. But so is deporting anyone who is found to be here illegally.
Of course there's a problem with it. Of course there is. But we'd be rewarding them with citizenship and rewarding ourselves with workers, tax dollars, and fines, as well as back-taxes which they shoulda been paying the whole time.
Let me repeat this.... they are not going to repay back taxes. There is no way to collect the money. What are you going to do? Put them in debter's prison? Garnish their wages? Remember that part of the supposed reason they are here is that they do the low wage jobs that no American will do. So you want to garnish wages and make it so they cannot live?
BTW - I bet that if you tried to impliment this, 90% of the people would say they "just got here."
I'm not excusing it, I was stating a matter of fact.
Of course you are excusing it. You are rewarding illegal behavior that was committed under the guise of "making a better life."
If you were an illegal immigrant, why bother crossing the border if you've got a decent paying job, available health care and education?
So once again, it is acceptable to you to break the law in order to "make a better life?"
They have no other option.
You mean that their own countries are hopeless? No one can fix them?
If that is the case, then why do you say that we should help them fix their own countries? According to you, it is an impossible task.
They're doing it for survival.
Wasn't that the rational that the Japanese used to attack Pearl Harbor? They were doing it for "survival?" Is it beyond your comprehension that they if they are unwilling to fix their own country's problems, why should we allow them to bring those problems here to the US?
So if we help the structural problems in Mexico, I think it'll at least partially discourage the flood of illegals.
I keep forgetting how we never help Mexico with any situation.
Surely you jest with this.
Nothing different than being a compassionate conservative.
Except for the fact that a compassionate conservative is compassionate to those who are innocent victims, do not break the law, and are not the by product of their own misdeeds.
Compassionate conservatism does not reward the lawbreaker and screw the law abider.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-02 19:21:40
January 2, 2008 6:56 PM |
Exactly!!
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-02 19:23:27
You're channelling Michael Medved, aren't you?
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 20:15:53
ooooh look! Cav touched a nerve in the new lefty. That's amusing.
I'll tell you what, bob. By your own admission you are (or more correctly were) a criminal and it's amusing to see you try to justify it by making the lame excuse that "most people have done it". While I would not be suprised to find that a majority of Americans have tried drugs at one point, there is no way that a majority have "done it alot" as you admit.
So yes, in your Highschool days you were an amoral criminal who fed into an industry that does untold damage to our society for your own selfish gratification.
But at least you no longer do so...at least that is something....
"Trench Raider"
who has never touched an illegal drug in his life, except when literally doing so while confiscating them at work....
Posted by trenchraider
2008-01-02 20:34:46
Here is what else Linda said in the article that #30 was taken from:
"What is said today of the Mexicans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans and others was once said of Germans, Swedes, the Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews and others. The only difference is that in the past, the xenophobes could speak freely, unconstrained by a veneer of political correctness. Today, they speak more cautiously, so they talk about the rule of law, national security, amnesty, whatever else they think might make their arguments less racially charged.
Where once the xenophobes could advocate forced sterilization and eugenics coupled with virtually shutting off legal immigration from "undesirable" countries, now they must be content with building walls, putting troops on the border, rounding up illegal aliens on the job and deporting them, passing local ordinances to signal their distaste for immigrants' multi-family living arrangements, and doing whatever else they can to drive these people back where they came from."
Great stuff, Linda!
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 20:36:55
Yes, my wrist is broken and I have a brand new cast on it. I'm pushing 40 and this is the first time I have ever broken a bone.
Last night I was fencing at a friend's house and while stepping back to avoid a thrust I slipped an fell over backwards. By reflex I threw my hands out behind me to break my fall and bent my wrist back. I might very well havebroken both wrists had I not kept hold of my epee, which took the brunt of the impact on my righthand. But now I'm going to have to order a new bell from Triplette as mine is bent beyond repair.
Well the bad news is that I'm out of work for six weeks. (security personel are not permitted to work in contact with inmates in a cast) The good news is that I'll get more time to do things around the house, play online games, and post to blogs!
"Trench Raider"
Posted by trenchraider
2008-01-02 20:41:56
Just as I do not take anything on the subject of drug legalization seriously if it comes from an admitted user, I discount the opinions of those who unashamedly admit to employing illegals.
Lets see how big a man you are. Post your business name and address....
You know I won't do anything illegal. I'm not that sort. What are you worried about? ;-)
TR
Posted by trenchraider
2008-01-02 20:46:20
Yeah, sure it is criminal. As long as you can make money off of the backs of other criminals, anyone can say anything about anything and you'd agree.
Got that address ready for Trench yet?
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 20:55:36
Posted by trenchraider
January 2, 2008 8:41 PM |
My wife used to teach fencing a long time ago in P.E. classes.
Now if that happened to an illegal, or for that matter, a legal construction worker, tough luck. No work means no pay , but maybe the boss would be generous and put you into something that you could do with a cast on your hand, like running stuff out to the job site.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 20:56:23
Or just do what you do, Fiza. Toss them out for being lazy and go find another. No shortage of illegals in this country, thanks to criminals like you!
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 21:05:34
Don't act like you're the wise and understanding one being held back by radicals. You were calling for a "better way" a new way, without any specifics or even the hint of a plan. You just don't care for the obvious: enforce the law, deport the criminals, renovate the immigration process.
We know what to do, it's just people like you don't want it to happen. There's no "better way" out there like a cure for penicillin. The best way is obvious and staring you in the face. You just are trying to look at everything else in the room instead.
Posted by Christopher_Taylor
2008-01-02 21:10:31
You know I won't do anything illegal. I'm not that sort. What are you worried about? ;-)"
Posted by trenchraider
January 2, 2008 8:46 PM |
Here is an article describing the great job the Bush administration is doing in arresting officials of companies hiring illegals:
www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007712260445
Here is a quote from the above link:
""The days of treating employers who violate these laws by giving them the equivalent of a corporate parking ticket, those days are gone. It's now felonies, jail time, fines and forfeitures," Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said at a Nov. 6 news conference.
But even though the department has ratcheted up its enforcement effort, this year's 92 criminal arrests of employers amount to a drop in the bucket of a national economy that includes 6 million companies that employ more than 7 million unauthorized workers, several analysts said. Seventeen firms faced criminal fines or other forfeitures this year.
Late in the Clinton administration and early in the current administration, the number of illegal immigrants arrested in worksite cases fell -- from 2,849 in 1999 to a low of 445 in 2003 -- but there has since been a rebound. The number of criminal cases brought against employers fell from 182 to four over that time.
In the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, Immigration and Customs Enforcement reported that the 92 criminal arrests included 59 owners and 33 corporate officials, human resources workers, crew chiefs and others in the "supervisory chain."
Of the remaining criminal arrests, nearly 9 in 10 involved workers and other people accused of identity theft or document fraud, money laundering, providing transportation or documentation to illegal workers, or other crimes."
PS, Trenchraider With 6 million businesses hiring illegals, you should have no trouble getting business addresses while you are laid up with that cast on your hand. Check out any construction job site, home cleaning service, restaurants, hotels, etc., or any place where people do good honest hard labour. Unfortunately for you, many of these big business owners and managers are good Republicans who contribute plenty to the Republican party, and who hire the best of the lobbysts.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 21:21:34
I don't see it that way.
There can be no doubt that many Americans have broken the law by hiring illegal aliens. And there can be no doubt that many people in the US are illegals.
I don't want to punish either group. I just want that we come to grips with what is going on.
"Build the fence first. We all agree on that? Secure the border first." said living in Ca.
Yeah...I agree with that.
Let's stop the flow of illegals. Can there really be any discussion beyond that?
I ask liberals that as well. First...secure the borders. Then lets talk about those behind them.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 21:25:20
Again with the whine, "Other people are doing it, too. Why are you picking on me???"
How base and pathetic can you get, Fiza? Your excuse for breaking the law is, "Everyone else is doing it".
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 21:27:23
Posted by StanW
January 2, 2008 9:05 PM |
Obviously you never had a construction job. Do you think that the workers, American or foreign born, illegal or legal, get paid for no work? Are you stupid? No sub could possibly exist in this competitive world. Do you think those highway workers out there, or on any construction job get paid when the weather conditions do not allow for work? Do you think that a mechanic who services your car gets paid when he has no jobs to do?
PS, we do take care of our productive workers. Otherwise they would jump jobs. Out competetion is always after our best workers, and we do likewise.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 21:37:10
Great stuff, Linda!
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 8:36 PM |"
Yeah, gotta love the racists in the Democratic Party.
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-02 21:40:18
Oooo, a caring businessman... who exploits illegal aliens because if he didn't pay them sub-standard wages and no benefits, he couldn't compete. So, since everyone is doing it, we sould leave him alone.
Please pardon me while I feel sorry for a many that cannot stay in business unless he knowingly breaks the law and deliberately exploits other humans for his own greed.
Posted by StanW
2008-01-02 21:42:27
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 21:44:00
Just funny... and true.
A man who has to send his wife out to fight his battles, and then use the quotes Coulter made against him to try to raise funds deserves zero respect -- he actually deserves scorn for it
Posted by ToddonCapeCod
2008-01-02 21:51:39
January 2, 2008 9:42 PM |
I hope you don't eat any produce from the USA, particularly all that good eatin stuff from the west coast and Florida too. If you do, you are helping provide jobs for illegals.
PS, Stan, How is your back? I know a grower that needs some workers during harvest. It is backbreaking work, but you can make $100 a day after some experience. Sorry, no union benefits, seniority, sick leave, vacation, 401K, defined benefit pension, and all that stuff you expect. Coffee breaks are on you, that is, no work, no pay.
PS2, no growers that I know of provide internet services to their farm labour. So I suggest getting one of those Sprint or Verizon cards for you laptop that you can use while sitting on a Don's John
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 22:08:14
Just funny... and true."
Posted by ToddonCapeCod
January 2, 2008 9:51 PM |
I bet you really liked Ann baby's comment to Donny Deutch about "perfecting Jews" too.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 22:11:24
Posted by fiza
While I can apprediate what you are saying because we also take care of our legal productive workers from other countries....
Do you understand that illegal workers from other countries make you a lawbreaker?
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 22:11:30
We are always confronted with the question of legal or illegal workers, and we are tempted to hire illegals.
Though we can't. Because the state says so. If I were a business man I would be tempted. That is the way it is. If I were a private entreprenuer, I would be tempted to hire some of the people who apply for jobs, that apply for jobs at a public institution that I can't hire.
If I were a private individual...I'm not going to lie....I would be willing to take the fines. No matter how I would have to game the system, after two years I would have a staff of 20 or hispanics who would do what I asked...up to a point.
I know that would be illegal, but I would take my chances...
How does that square with what I know to be true on a 'national security' basis?
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 22:28:43
January 2, 2008 10:11 PM
1900. Heh.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-02 22:29:54
January 2, 2008 10:11 PM
He understands. Just as I have pointed out repeatedly that his actions aid and abet the sexual abuse of women and children, and he keeps on keepin' on.
So the choices are that he doesn't care, in which case he is a horrific person to not care about others, or he doesn't really hire illegals, in which case he is a liar, much like Goose.
Either way, he's a jackass.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-02 22:33:18
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 10:11 PM
Again...it is true. A perfected Jew is a Christian. Any real Jew or Christian would know that given the common history our faiths share and the logical path they follow. Her only fault is not dumbing it down enough for you and deutch to understand. How does it feel to be an idiot at the start of 08’?
Posted by tblrk2006
2008-01-02 22:36:23
Posted by jasamc
January 2, 2008 10:33 PM |
So am I.
That is why I think it is important for the borders to be closed. It shouldn't be possible for us jackasses to hire illegal immigrants at below market wages.
Just being honest, here.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 22:47:31
You do have a point there fiza.
Pretty much the same argument goes back and forth here all the time about illegals and finally cons have something to kind of smile about in Arizona.
Illegals are leaving Arizona for a couple of reasons one: a tough law has been passed that punishes people who employ illegals and two: one that is more worrisome and that is the economy in Arizona isn't doing so well so those so called undesirable jobs are drying up and hence the illegals are leaving more because of that than the crack down on employers but we shall see.
I tend to side with the cons here for a couple of reasons.
First, I have a friend who married a filipino and she is trying to get her parents over here. She is working an extra job because the Feds say she has to show so much money in order to support her parents for a year. There is a ton of other stuff she has to do too and it costs money alot of money. How is it fair to my friend and his wife if illegals can come over and completely circument our immigration requirements?
But what gets me is what the hell is wrong with the country of Mexico that greater than 20% of its citizens want to leave? Can't they create wealth in their own country? I'm not saying we can't hash something out with some workers coming across or borders but it is alittle extreme to have 20% of your population looking for better wages and then sending it back to Mexico.
And if the Mexicans have no shame then why should we be shamed into allowing them here? Would you allow someone to live in your basement and siphon off your electricity and water?
As far as I'm concerned the 'keeping your house in order' argument stands alone against having illegals in our country imho.
Posted by libliever
2008-01-02 22:51:14
Posted by jasamc
January 2, 2008 10:29 PM |
What do you mean?
PS, have you translated the phrase I gave you that Poles use to refer to the Germans yet? Your talkative Polish waiter probably used that phrase when describing those cheap tipping German tourists sitting at the table next to you. Too bad that I used english words to mimic the Polish pronunciation (versus the correct Polish spelling) so that you can't google the phrase.
Hint: one of the words in a the phrase is a derogatory Polish word for a "krauthead". Maybe your Polish phrase book has it. Let's see now, by your logic, the Poles and Germans like each other because they trade with each other. Wow! What great logic from a person that knows absolutly zero about Polish-German relations and their common stereotypes of each other.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-02 22:51:34
I know what you're trying to say here but I got tell you that it really, really is coming across badly.
Posted by libliever
2008-01-02 22:56:51
Posted by fiza
January 2, 2008 10:51 PM |
Get a grip, aschloch. WWII is over.
And Poles nowadays want to congregate with Germans.
Any proof to dispute that?
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 23:00:00
January 2, 2008 10:28 PM |
I am tempted by many things in my life. I am tempted to want to lie and cheat on tests or an application to get a job.
I am tempted to cheat on my significant other.
I am tempted to cut corners at work so I can go home earlier.
It is not the temptation. It is giving into the temptation that matters.
I have had he opportunity to hire illegal immigrants and made more money for myself and my company. I have always chosen not to. The temptation is always there, but I have to look at myself in the mirror in the morning and I want to be able to say "there is a law abiding, moral man."
Others choose to sell out their principles and morals for a few bucks.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-02 23:09:00
January 2, 2008 11:09 PM |
Beautiful...temptation exists for all of us.
Whether we give in is the question.
You and I are honest, and able to face our God.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 23:16:44
I think Sheriff Joe has a chain gang program in his jail.
Posted by aharris
2008-01-02 23:27:05
January 2, 2008 11:09 PM |
You are more honest than I. I still have to come to grips with my confession of sin.
Posted by rmiller
2008-01-02 23:31:33
I'm not sure if you're fluent in German so I don't want to presume but I think you are missing a consonant ie should read arschloch...I won't translate fiza probably figured it out anyways...
Posted by libliever
2008-01-02 23:42:48
January 2, 2008 6:14 PM
Bob -- maybe a good idea, however, you are under the assumption that the liberal media is not lying about recruiting numbers. The numbers are fine, it is the specialties that are being asked to deploy longer and more often. Support and logistics are the utmost importance in our new mobile military, so a lot of specialty are needed. The military spends a great deal of time training people for those, and there are not enough people that have completed the training.
There are currently over 100,000 people serving in the various military branches that are not citizens. They are already fast tracked. But again, these are people that respect our laws, our flag, and want to become Americans. They are willing to sacrifice for our country, so we respect and welcome them.
Posted by wyo_os_con
2008-01-03 00:04:37
And Poles nowadays want to congregate with Germans.
Any proof to dispute that?"
Posted by rmiller
January 2, 2008 11:00 PM |
Do Poles want trade and German tourism? Sure, but congregate with them? I don't think so! You, German born with European ties and German relatives, should know that German-Polish relations are at a new low, especially with Germans asking for war reparations for those forced out of the former German territories now part of Poland, in particular, the treasured Baltics. Do Germans and Poles hate each other? No, except for a minority, but do they like each other? I don't think so! Germany even passed laws prohibiting workers from fellow EO member Poland from free access to most jobs in Germany. That is the reason many Poles have taken jobs in the more "frendly" EU countries like the UK and Ireland, where they are welcome.
Haven't you read about the fears of German police and border residents when the checkpoints were just eliminated on the German-Polish and German-Czech borders, per EU agreements, on Dec 21? The Germans now fear crime, stolen cars, etc.
Here is a quote from this link:
www.expatica.com/de/articles/news/Germans-have-mixed-feelings-about-open-borders.html
"But it is the fear of a rise in crime that unsettles people most, particularly in Frankfurt an der Oder, a town of 87,000 that is the main east-west transit crossing between Berlin and Warsaw.
"They are worried that shoplifting and car thefts will increase, said Markus Derling, a local councillor. "There is a genuine concern among the citizens."
This view was echoed by Kerstin, a woman in her 20s who regularly walks across the border to the Polish town of Slubice to stock up on cheap cigarettes.
"I don't trust them," she said, referring to the Poles. "They're much poorer than we are. When they start coming over Frankfurt will soon be Polish," she told a radio interviewer.
"You'll get too many crooks coming across and flooding Frankfurt," said one man. "The problems in Poland and the other states of Eastern Europe are much greater than we imagine," added another."
Nice neighbors, huh!
Posted by fiza
2008-01-03 00:07:00
January 2, 2008 11:31 PM |
Someone once posed the question of "how many lies does it take to make a liar?" Or "how many times does someone have to steal something to be a thief?"
We all try and rationalize what we know to be wrong.
There are those here who say they will break the law by hiring what they know are illegal immigrants to do construction work. They say they do this to be competative in the marketplace. So what else do they do to remain "competative?" Not get the proper permits? Not get things inspected? Use unlicensed plumbers and electricians? Use substandard materials but charge for premium?
All those people have done is admit that their word is not worth anything and that they are dishonest businessmen who would break the law to make a buck.
Not exactly a ringing endorsement for them or their work.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-03 00:09:52
Posted by gitarcarver
January 3, 2008 12:09 AM |
All residential and commercial construstion must pass inspection. The builders specify the materials and the builder's job super and his assistants check for the proper materials and craftsmanship. The subs are responsible for getting their work inspected. If you recently bought a new house, or even bought one 20 yrs ago, depending on what part of the country you live in, your excavation, grading, slab or basement, framing, roof, siding (especially stucco), drywall, driveway, concrete, stone, and tile work, paint, ect. was probably done, in part, by immigrant labour. This is a fact in Nevada and CA. Most of your electrical and plumbing was done by American born workers, although immigrants are doing the latter (plumbing) work in some areas. Enjoy your new home or office space.
PS, go out to a job site and see who is busting their rears, on say a July 4th, or some other holiday weekend, or any weekend, trying to get a house ready for occupancy. See who is putting on siding or a roof til dusk during the week. Your American worker is long gone working on that 6 pack or firing up his barbecue.
Who do you think is supplying a lot of the labour on those big hotels going up in Vegas?
StanW should go out to Vegas and demand that the gov't shut dowm those big projects like the new MGM city center and the Wynn expansion.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-03 00:43:23
You can have as many guest workers as you want from wherever you want(oh, what a shocking statement from the racist side) BUT DOCUMENT THEM.
Posted by mipt
2008-01-03 06:14:37
Cute. Still doing the "I don't understand" thing. Whatever gets you through life, abuser.
Bull. They don't do that.
Probably not. And, more than likely, not only haven't you been out of the country, you probably haven't been out of your county.
Too bad you are destroying the lives of women and children. Hmm, one of these is worse than the other.
Again, don't hurt yourself moving those goalposts. First you said that Poles dislike the Germans, then you said that back in 1900 they did, then you switched to Germans disliking the Poles.
A liar and an idiot.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-03 06:20:55
Posted by fiza
January 3, 2008 12:07 AM |"
Welcome to 1870,
Xenophobe much?
Posted by n_obrain
2008-01-03 06:51:24
No, *YOU* shoudl stop knowingly breaking the law and then trying to excuse it with your pathetic third-grade whine "but, but, but, they're doing it tooooooooooo! Waaaaaaaaaaa."
Posted by StanW
2008-01-03 08:35:12
That's the law - the law that is on the same book that you proudly claim you try and circumvent with illegal workers. So why should anyone believe that you aren't circumventing inspections?
The builders specify the materials and the builder's job super and his assistants check for the proper materials and craftsmanship.
And you have said that you are willing to circumvent laws to make a buck. So why should anyone believe that you are going to actually use the materials that you say you are going to use?
The subs are responsible for getting their work inspected. If you recently bought a new house, or even bought one 20 yrs ago, depending on what part of the country you live in, your excavation, grading, slab or basement, framing, roof, siding (especially stucco), drywall, driveway, concrete, stone, and tile work, paint, ect. was probably done, in part, by immigrant labour.
I am forced to notice that you left out the qualifier "LEGAL" in "immigrant labor." You know - as is immigrants that are legally here in this country as opposed to those who are breaking the law and their employers who break the law with them.
PS, go out to a job site and see who is busting their rears, on say a July 4th, or some other holiday weekend, or any weekend, trying to get a house ready for occupancy. See who is putting on siding or a roof til dusk during the week. Your American worker is long gone working on that 6 pack or firing up his barbecue.
And I am sure that you are paying your workers overtime on hours worked beyond 4o hours a week, right? We know that because you comply with labor regulations.
Oh wait - you don't.
I am sorry that you have demonstrated that you are willing to break the law and labor laws of the country and then get upset when your "integrity" in other areas of your work is questioned.
If you are willing to cut corners in one area of your workplace, you are willing to cut corners in all areas.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-03 08:54:02
Hey shithead.. Try that same trick on say May 5th... Jackass. They are illegal. They don't give a shit about what happened on July 4. Hell neither do you ya communist sympathizing liberal dick weed liar. No wonder you work for one of these companies. I hope you go to jail for a long time.
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-03 09:15:46
January 2, 2008 6:56 PM |
We don't need "guest workers," aharris: what we need are more AMERICANS. And since American women have decided to abort their own children en masse, to the tune of 40 million to date, the only way we can keep our population growing is by mass immigration.
We need more Americans for a number of hardheaded reasons that have little to do with "compassion," but much with our national self-interest:
A society without a growing population is stagnant, or - worse - dying. I refer you to Europe.
China is rising, with 1.5 billion people and incredible economic growth. This year, China will surpass the US as the direct engine of world economic growth - and it's just as the beginning of its rise. If the USA wants to remain viable as the world's pre-eminent power, it had better start bulking up its population, but FAST. Projections are the US population might hit 500 million by 2050... and not a minute too soon. But that growth depends on IMMIGRATION... doesn't it make sense to ensure that it is LEGAL immigration? By people that will consider themselves AMERICANS, not "guests"?
Posted by CoolCzech
2008-01-03 09:41:25
sooooo true. I've spent a lot of time on job sites and after working with a contractor who goes in and cleans up after the builders I can attest to the truth of sub-par home construction as perpetrated by builders who employ illegal immigrants. The most egregious offender in my experience was Richland Homes (recently busted by INS along with Conagra in CO for hiring illegals). We had to jack up houses and reset i-beams holding the house up, install vapor barriers, rip out and re-floor floating basements, and many other fixes that could have been avoided if the work had been completed correctly when the house was built.
In my experience, if a builder is willing to skimp on their labor, they are willing to skimp on materials, and procedures that would ensure the building is safe and will last. Fiza points out that inspectors check out each house prior to certifying the building (and they do), but the reality is the inspectors are overworked and rarely do a thorough job of inspecting buildings that are built by major contractors (who also happen to be the worst perpetrators of hiring sub-par labor).
I can understand the bleeding hearts' desire to help out the poor immigrants, but the reality is that the 'help' we're granting these illegals is harming our economy and culture and costing our nation far more in the long run than we can ever make up for in the short term.
Posted by simulacre
2008-01-03 10:50:10
January 3, 2008 10:50 AM |
Most of the time the inspectors ask if the contractor is confident in the work. Check 1 house and assume that the rest are the same. Might be easy to mess a few up. At least it was that way when I was running crews framing houses in the 80's. And no we did not use illegal's. They did not understand English and never got it right so they were more expensive to use they any other kind of labor.
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-03 11:01:54
China is rising, with 1.5 billion people and incredible economic growth."
Posted by CoolCzech
January 3, 2008 9:41 AM |
You are correct! Japan, like Europe, also has a stagnant and aging population with not enough new production workers. Japan severly limits immigration. That, insuffient workers in Japan and lower labour costs offshore, is why Japan is moving production to China and other Asian countries.
However, China's population will eventually age due to their strict population controls. So maybe the US, with it's management skills, wealth, and more importantly, it's vast labour pool south of the border, will continue to lead the world in economic growth. We cannot depend anymore on our formerly vast labour pool in Europe
Posted by fiza
2008-01-03 11:02:25
January 3, 2008 10:50 AM |
Sure there is substandard work. There always has been. Who is going to replace the immigrant labour? Are you going to go down to the union hall and hire what is left, the skilled workers that nobody else wants?
PS, gitarcarver , if you think that licenced plumbers do all the new construction plumbing, you are nuts! There are licenced plumbers on the job, but there is NEVER eneough of them to all the work in a building boom. The same goes for electricians.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-03 11:14:25
January 3, 2008 11:02 AM |
There is good cause to believe that the United States, out of all the major world powers, in fact has the brightest future, provided it continues to accept mass immigration.
Europe is demographically a spent force. Russia is begging its people to stay home and have sex. China is limiting families to one child... and their culture is leading them to abort females! China within a generation or two will be on the verge of demographic collapse. India likewise has a habit of aborting females.
But we ourselves aren't exactly breeding very much - except the Spears family, apparantly, and other, less famous underagelings.
We need immigration - so why not find a LEGAL way to have it?
Posted by CoolCzech
2008-01-03 11:18:36
THAT'S FUNNY! Poles and Czechs have feared the Germans for Good Cause for CENTURIES. They might not be all that much poorer than the Germans... if it wasn't for what the Germans did to them in the 20th century.
I think Germans would do better to just shut up on that subject.
Posted by CoolCzech
2008-01-03 11:23:45
Well, since you have already admitted that you are willing to break the law in order to make money, it calls into question what else you will do to make money. Shoddy equipment, sub-standard parts, give your employees illegal drugs that allow the to work longer and harder so you can make more money?
With liars and criminals like you, Fiza, it's very hard to know what is enough for you!
Posted by StanW
2008-01-03 11:27:37
THAT is NOT funny, but tragically sad. Perhaps the Germans should pay reparations for each and every life they took in other people's countries during WW2? The Jewish communities of Poland and Czechoslovakia were utterly decimated, and tens of thousands of other ethnic groups - gypsies, Poles, and Czechs included likewise. Lidice is pretty much forgotten in the West these days, but it should weight heavily on the conscience of every German that ever assumes an attitude of superiority to eastern Europeans. Morally, they are as inferior as one can imagine.
Again: Germans would be best served shutting up about the past. I might not "hate" them... but "like?" Don't get me started...
Posted by CoolCzech
2008-01-03 11:32:04
Bull. I met every one of the people who built my house, down to the cleaner who touched it up the day of final inspection. All Americans, all licensed (yes, I checked). You're full of it, as usual.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-03 11:34:57
January 3, 2008 11:14 AM |
"Sure there is substandard work. There always has been. Who is going to replace the immigrant labour?
ILLEGAL ALIEN labor... The answer to that question is simple and very cost effective. STOP WELFARE!!!!!! Make it so people have to work. Liberals are so blind to the damage they cause and then just ignore it.. As to the substandard work.. Make the contractors liable for it. Yes Asshole your boss… Liable… Think about that for just a minuet.. You would be held responsible for every nail. If something failed its you who pay for it. You who would go to jail for using illegal's like you should… Freighting.
Are you going to go down to the union hall and hire what is left, the skilled workers that nobody else wants?"
Funny.. That statement says you use union labor... Funny but the Union shops I knew in California went out of business years ago because they could not compete with people hiring illegal's… You know your crews. All those American families having to do something else because you can't compete and need to use illegal's. Sounds like you need a pay cut.
Posted by ninerdog
2008-01-03 11:34:58
Let's remember that the ONLY reason the Germans are richer today than the Czechs or Poles is because THEY (in a supreme irony of history, since THEY were the ones that destroyed eastern Europe and allowed the Soviets to impoverish the region after WW2) were lucky enough to (completely undeservedly) be under AMERICAN occupation, at least in the Western half of their miserable country.
In Eastern Europe, the Czechs actually did heads and shoulders better economically than the East Germans, for all their vaunted Teutonic virtues.
So let's make the point perfectly clear, one last time: The damned Germans would do better to just SHUT UP about the past and be happy Stalin didn't get his way with them at Potsdam.
There... I'm starting to feel better... :-D
Posted by CoolCzech
2008-01-03 11:38:35
Hehheh. You're the one waving your lifetime record of screwups around like a war banner, pal. And the "well, other people did it too" excuse has never worked with Conservatives. If you'd said "I was a low-life burnout druggie thief with less moral sense than a kumquat, but now I understand how wrong I was," that'd be different. Instead, you tell us these things as though we're supposed to feel your pain and give you a pass. Go cry to the Democrats. They'll probably pat you on the head and give you some money they picked from my pocket. But don't expect to buy any credibility with me or other Conservatives by defending your crimes and wrongdoings. We've all made mistakes. But we don't pretend we're covered in some kind of glory or granted a lifetime respite from morality because of them.
Posted by CavalierX
2008-01-03 11:42:43
Posted by jasamc
January 3, 2008 6:20 AM |
What are you talking about? There is animosity on both sides, and I gave you plenty of links. Both Germans and Poles have stereotypes of each other, whether true, or imagined. Only a fool like you thinks the Germans and Poles just love each other because they trade goods and services. Do they hate each other? No, except for a minority. Do they dislike each other? Yes, the majority do!
PS, maybe you missed my quote from this link regarding the recent (on Dec 21) elimination (per EU agreements) of Polish-German border checkpoints:
www.expatica.com/de/articles/news/Germans-have-mixed-feelings-about-open-borders.html
"But it is the fear of a rise in crime that unsettles people most, particularly in Frankfurt an der Oder, a town of 87,000 that is the main east-west transit crossing between Berlin and Warsaw.
"They are worried that shoplifting and car thefts will increase, said Markus Derling, a local councillor. "There is a genuine concern among the citizens."
This view was echoed by Kerstin, a woman in her 20s who regularly walks across the border to the Polish town of Slubice to stock up on cheap cigarettes.
"I don't trust them," she said, referring to the Poles. "They're much poorer than we are. When they start coming over Frankfurt will soon be Polish," she told a radio interviewer.
"You'll get too many crooks coming across and flooding Frankfurt," said one man. "The problems in Poland and the other states of Eastern Europe are much greater than we imagine," added another."
Nice neighbors, huh!
PS2, English is not commonly spoken, as you claim, in your little out-of-the-way restaurants in Poland. Your stories and claims of good Polish-German relation are, in Polish, "SRATA TATA"!
Maybe coolczech can translate this for you.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-03 11:48:29
January 3, 2008 11:38 AM |
Good Post! We actually agree on something!
Posted by fiza
2008-01-03 12:01:24
As opposed to the unskilled, unlicensed, illegal labor that you hire that is doing the substandard work you admit happens?
PS, gitarcarver , if you think that licenced plumbers do all the new construction plumbing, you are nuts! There are licenced plumbers on the job, but there is NEVER eneough of them to all the work in a building boom. The same goes for electricians.
So you are sying that when there isn't a boom, you let all the illegal immigrant workers that are unlicensed go, right?
Of course you don't.
This isn't about the work or quality of work to you. This is about money and how you can subvert and bypass the law to make as much as you can and the hell with the law and other people.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-03 13:03:07
January 3, 2008 11:48 AM
Wow. You are seriously dense, aren't you? You posted yet AGAIN a story about how Germans dislike the Poles WHEN YOUR ORIGINAL CLAIM WAS HOW THE POLES DISLIKE THE GERMANS!!! Man, how stupid are you? Wait, don't answer that, I've seen your posts...pretty damn stupid.
PS 1900. Heh.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-03 13:19:34
In some ways, I understand wanting to help illegal aliens as well. However, what fiza does is not helping them - it is exploitation. He doesn't pay them the going rate. He doesn't pay them for overtime.
His motive is not altruistic.
It is money in his pocket.
Posted by gitarcarver
2008-01-03 15:02:24
January 3, 2008 10:50 AM |
Posted by CoolCzech
January 3, 2008 11:18 AM |
Posted by StanW
January 3, 2008 11:27 AM |
Posted by jasamc
January 3, 2008 11:34 AM |
Posted by ninerdog
January 3, 2008 11:34 AM |
Posted by CavalierX
January 3, 2008 11:42 AM |
Posted by gitarcarver
January 3, 2008 1:03 PM |
So, in summation, Fiza has been proven to be a lying, ammoral sack of crap.
Again.
Posted by mightysamurai
2008-01-03 19:57:35
January 3, 2008 1:19 PM |
I think I did a pretty good job of proving that there is a lot of animosity on both sides. Do Poles and Germans hate each other? Only a small minority! Do they distrust and/or dislike each other, and do they have stereotypes of each other? Absolutely! Only a fool like yuo thinks otherwise.
What is your proof that German-Polish relations are good? Some speech given in an embassy? What a joke?That they trade with each other?
Have you EVER asked a Poles what their feelings about Germany are?
Former German Chancellor Schroeder, in 2004, bowed in front of a memorial to the Warsaw freedom fighters uprising. Here, in quotes, is the reaction of some Poles:
""But when Schroeder joined U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Britain's Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott at another monument to Polish freedom fighters, he was booed by a crowd that included many uprising veterans. One man held up a sign, "Heil Schroeder."
"Schroeder's presence is against my sense of what is right," said Leokadia Borzezinska, who watched Warsaw burn in 1944 as an 8-year-old girl. "The uprising is a very Polish experience."
Wojciech Wiewiorowski, 76, who was showing his grandson places where he fought, told The Associated Press, "I do not feel good about this. We have a proverb in Poland that says Germans are better off one meter under the ground." "
Tak, tak, the Polish proverb "Germans are better off one meter under the ground"!
PS, have you translated my phrase yet? I don't think you will find it in your Polish phrase book. Memorize the pronunciation, and repeat it to your talkative waiter on your next trip to Poland. You will get very good service. Please do not tip like the Germans.
PS2, Again, your stories and claims of good Polish-German relation are, in Polish, "SRATA TATA"! The translation is "bullshit". Write that down for your next trip, you "BARAN"!
PS3, here was coolczech's comment on his feelings:
"Again: Germans would be best served shutting up about the past. I might not "hate" them... but "like?" Don't get me started..."
Posted by CoolCzech
January 3, 2008 11:32 AM |
Those feelings are pretty common among native eastern europeans, whether they are Polish, Czech, Slovak, Lithuanian, Hungarian, Ukranian, etc.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-04 00:32:40
January 4, 2008 12:32 AM
1900. Heh.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-04 05:34:47
January 4, 2008 5:34 AM |
Tak, tak, the Polish proverb "Germans are better off one meter under the ground"!
Did your waiter tell you that?
"How about this:
"To say there is baggage in the German-Polish relationship does not begin to account for the scars left by the war, bloodshed, persecution and humiliation of the last century — a stream of abuse that Germans acknowledge has flowed mainly from west to east. So it is perhaps no surprise that a new exhibit here, devoted to the suffering of more than 12 million Germans expelled from Poland and other countries at the end of World War II, has touched a raw nerve with Poles, straining a relationship that had already fallen into disrepair."
or this:
"“Ordinary Poles feel more resentful and suspicious toward Germany,” Marek Ostrowski, an editor at the weekly magazine Polityka, said." “
or this:
"Polish-German relations have been strained since an agreement was signed last year between two German companies and Russia's OAO Gazprom to construct a gas pipeline underneath the Baltic Sea, bypassing Poland and awakening old fears of the country's powerful neighbors. Polish Defense Minister Radoslaw Sikorski earlier this year compared the deal to the Molotov- Ribbentrop Pact signed by Hitler and Stalin to divide Poland between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union ahead of World War II."
or this:
"But the voting power question went to the heart of Polish worries. Fear of a German-dominated Europe is still very real and Polish children are still taught a highly skewed version of history. National identity is still largely constructed around the country's past relations with Germany and Russia, so the leaders of Prawo i Sprawiedliwość find it easy to exploit anti-German sentiment and foster hostility towards some European partners and the EU itself. Hence the Kaczynski brothers' claim that the German presidency's plans to reform the EU voting system was deliberately designed to increase Berlin's weight in Europe at the expense of smaller states, especially Poland."
or this:
"WARSAW) - Polish Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski accused, in an interview published Saturday, neighbour and European Union partner Germany of seeking to take over Polish territory and mistreating Polish immigrants."
or this:
""The Kaczynskis are very cynical in their German position, but this anti-German complex is still very important in Polish life, and we as a nation are still very much afraid of them," said Pawel Spiewak, a political scientist at Warsaw University."
and yes, relations will hopefully get better, as this quote indicates:
"POTSDAM, Germany and WARSAW, Poland--Ask the average Polish teenager to describe a German, and chances are good you’ll hear words like “patronizing” and “arrogant.” Ask a German teenager to describe Poles and you’re just as likely to hear “poor” and “boorish.”
Challenging those stereotypes is the goal of a 12-year-old program called the Polish-German Youth Cooperation (PNWM). The idea is simple: bring Polish and German students together to learn about each other face-to-face. .... more than 1.2 million Poles and Germans have visited their neighbors to find out whether the differences between them are actually as deep as they sometimes seem........ Polish-German relations are notoriously contentious, with wars and battles raging between two countries from the Middle Ages until World War II. Polish history is often presented in schools as dominated by conflicts with Germans, and Polish children are taught that the two nations are historical enemies.
In Germany, the situation is little better. Polish journalist Krystyna Grzybowska wrote a year ago in the Wprost weekly that her daughter--studying in a German school in Bonn--had been taught that Jozef Pilsudski, one of the most esteemed politicians in Polish history, was “an imperialist dictator who attacked a young Soviet country and then sponsored a fascist coup in his own country.”
""
I already gave you the links to most of these quotes in another post. If you still think that Polish-German relations are so great, you are, as they say in Polish, "GWOO PEE", a "BID LAK". You just got "DOH STACH FPYER DOL". These are, of course, not the correct Polish spellings, but you should have picked up these expressions in your extensive travels in Poland. The next time you sheck into the Holiday Inn Warsaw, tell the clerk "YAK TAM, VI PYER DEK"!
Posted by fiza
2008-01-04 12:20:17
January 4, 2008 12:20 PM
I didn't pick those sayings up, because, unlike you, I'm not such a dick to the locals. But then, I guess to someone who would aid the sexual abuse of children and women, it's not such a big deal.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-04 13:10:38
January 4, 2008 1:10 PM |
Oh, I forgot something. If the Holiday Inn clerk is a female, pose as a German and ask her in part German and part Polish "Guten Tag, Fraulein, Yest pani dobze kur vah"? Roll the "r" sharply in "kur". Coolczech can translate that for you.
PS, be prepared for a slap in the face and some real good Polish and maybe even German phrases describing her feelings about Germans.
PS2, Next you are going to tell me how much the Czechs, Slovaks, Ukranians, Hungarians, Slovenians, and Croatians just love the Germans, too, and how they all, including the Poles, just love the Russians. I bet you think the Slovenians like the Croatians and Serbs, and that the Croatians and Serbs like each other too. I bet you got all these good vibes from english speaking waiters in local, non tourist restaurants too.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-04 13:54:15
January 4, 2008 1:54 PM
Again, I'm not a jackass who goes up to the people of various countries and say "Boy, don't the Germans SUCK?"
But, again, I'm not someone who, every day, engages in practices that aids in child rape. I guess if I were you, maybe both of those things would be easier.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-04 14:00:31
Posted by jasamc
January 4, 2008 2:00 PM |
But you do tell us how much the Poles and Germans "like" each other. Do they hate each other? A minority do. Do they really like each other? Yes, a minority, mainly young Poles and Germans do. But the majority are suspicious of each other's intent, Particularly the Poles towards the Germans, and neither particularly likes each other. Even many east and west Germans feel that way about each other, as rmiller stated in one of his posts.
Old hostilities do not die away quickly.
Do you like the old Polish proverb
"Germans are better off one meter under the ground"?
How about this one?
"Tsoh Nymyetskey, toh pyes"
(who(ever) is German is a dog)
Next time, ask you waiter about that phrase! I bet he learned it from his grandparents and parents.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-04 14:40:20
I KNOW!!! Stupid British people! Just always mucking around over here! Oh, and the Japanese...hate them!
You are a tool, aren't you?
And, again, I am sure that you haven't even left your parents' basement yet, let alone the country. But good try, idiot boy.
Posted by jasamc
2008-01-04 17:51:41
January 4, 2008 5:51 PM |
You are a loser, or in Polish, "za takie zero" when it comes to knowledge of Polish-German relations, so just admit it.
Posted by fiza
2008-01-04 22:36:38
Also, shouldn't it be two meters instead of one as that is closest to six feet. So when translating the American would better understand the phrase "Germans are better off (six feet) underground. Two meters is roughly six feet so it would correspond to the American phrase 'Six Feet under'
Oh well.
As a side note I wish the Germans would take more interest on the GWOT as they are awesome fighters.
Maybe they are but are more discreet.
Posted by libliever
2008-01-05 19:34:08