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June 22, 2007
John Hawkins The Inside Story Of What's Happening With The Immigration Bill: Part 3

Yesterday, a GOP aide, who is one of my sources in the Senate, gave me the rundown on what's currently happening with the Senate immigration bill (You can see my two previous reports from this source here and here).

To begin with, the key thing to keep in mind about the upcoming vote on the Senate immigration bill is that the pro-amnesty forces have two key cloture votes that they have to win.

The first is the vote on the so-called "clay pigeon" strategy. What this does is take the original bill and all of its amendments and reintroduce it on the Senate floor as a new bill. There are two reasons for doing this. The first is to prevent killer amendments that could upset the "grand compromise" from being voted on. The second reason is procedural, because it keeps conservative senators who are opposed to the bill from being able to slow up the process.

However, in order for the bill and the previous amendments to be offered on the floor of the Senate as a new bill, it will take the cooperation of both Democratic and Republican leadership, along with 60 votes for cloture.

The conventional wisdom has been that this first cloture vote is a done deal because the Senate leadership has been wheeling and dealing behind the scenes. The way it works is that they go to a senator and offer to allow a vote on their Amendment IF -- and only if -- that senator agrees to vote for cloture on the "clay pigeon" strategy.

My source tells me that this has left a sour taste in the mouth of a number of Republican senators who are upset that Mitch McConnell is cooperating with Harry Reid to curtail the rights of Republican senators. Moreover, there's a growing fear that a dangerous precedent is being set here that could be used against Republican senators again and again as long as they're in the minority. After all, if the "clay pigeon" strategy is used against conservatives on the immigration issue, who's to say it won't also be used against them on any number of issues in the future? According to my source, this is causing a lot of nervousness amongst Republican senators and it has Mitch McConnell acting very defensively behind closed doors about working with Harry Reid to roll members of his own caucus. Because of this issue, my source tells me that the vote for the "clay pigeon" strategy is no longer a slam dunk and it is possible that the "grand bargainers" may not be able to get 60 votes to put the bill on the floor as a new bill. If that turns out to be the case, the bill is dead.

Then, if the bill does make it to the floor, there will be 30 hours of debate, and then a second cloture vote. Of course, if Senators voted for the fist cloture vote, there wouldn't seem to be any logical reason to then turn around and vote against the second cloture vote although for opponents of amnesty, that will be the last real chance to kill the bill.

If the bill makes it through the second cloture vote, 22 amendments will be offered. These amendments have been carefully selected by the combined Democratic/Republican leadership to try to make sure that no deal breakers can make it through. If certain amendments pass, it could cost votes. On the other hand, some senators may very well decide not to vote for the bill if their amendments don't pass. But, once the votes on the amendments are through, there will be another final vote for passage, but this time, only 50 will be needed and the bill would be almost certain to be approved if it gets this far.

Summary: My source tells me that he thought the amnesty proponents definitely had the upper hand last week, but now, he thinks the momentum may be swinging back the other way. He also said that he thinks the best chance to stop the bill will be on the initial cloture vote. He said that he's hoping that a coalition of conservatives who think this is a bad bill, liberals who think this bill is too tough, and Republican senators worried about losing minority rights because of the "clay pigeon" strategy will get together and block the bill.

PS #1: I pointed out that John Edwards and Claire McCaskill have made some extremely negative comments about the bill and asked my source if it's possible that Democratic opposition could increase enough to kill the bill. He said it was possible, but he thought Harry Reid was capable of strong arming the Democrats enough to keep them from losing many votes. Of course, he also added that he's not sure that Harry Reid really wants to see this bill pass, so he's not sure how hard he would fight for it. Either way, he said not to count on the Democrats to finish off the bill.

PS #2: I asked him about Johnny Isakson and Saxby Chambliss announcing that they will vote against cloture. My source's take was that it wasn't a bill killer, but that it was significant since both of them were prominent early supporters of the bill. He added that he thought their switch was indicative of the pressure Republicans are feeling at the grass roots level and he said that he thought Isakson and Chambliss deserved credit for paying attention to it while a lot of pro-amnesty supporters have tuned it out or even shut off their answering machines because they're tired of hearing their constituents complain about this issue.

PS #3: Last but not least, I talked to my source about the shots Trent Lott and Lindsey Graham have taken at people opposed to the bill. My source replied that when this whole thing started, these guys were cocky and thought they'd get this bill through with 70 votes, no problem. But now, because of the blogs and talk radio, they've lost the public debate on the issue and they know it. So, at this point, they're way out on a limb supporting a wildly unpopular bill that may or may not pass, and they're lashing out in frustration. He added that a lot of Republican senators have been offended and embarrassed by their comments and are worried that the voters will lump them in with Graham and Lott.

Update #1: My source conferenced with some other people he works with and called me back this morning to clarify how the clay pigeon strategy works: there will be two cloture votes, but the 2nd cloture vote will take place BEFORE the Amendments are voted on.

In other words, there will be a cloture on Tuesday, then there will be 30 hours of debate, and then there will be a second cloture vote. If the 2nd cloture vote passes, the amendments will then be voted on, and then we'll have the final vote on the bill.

So technically, a senator could vote for the cloture the first time and then change his/her mind and vote against cloture the second time, but that would seem to be unlikely, because the amendments won't have been put to a vote.

The original article has been edited to reflect this.

PS #4: This clay pigeon strategy is so rarely used that there is a lot of contradictory information out there about how it works. For example, Richard Burr seems to be indicating that there WILL BE amendments offered between the cloture votes,

"Republicans outside the negotiating team are asking that Graham's amendment, as well as a few others, get a floor vote before a cloture is attempted on the bill. "If they want the bill to have a chance, that's what has to happen," said Sen. Richard Burr, R-N.C., who said he is willing to vote for the first cloture motion to proceed to the bill to allow the amendment process to begin.

Burr left open the possibility he would vote for the second cloture motion, which would ensure a final vote on the bill, if the bill is improved from his perspective by the amendments."

However, my source is telling me that will not be the case.

Update #2: Here's diehard amnesty supporter, Jon Kyl on the 2nd cloture vote,

"I think that perhaps on Tuesday, the cloture vote to take the bill back up again will be voted on and will pass. It'll be fairly close. There will then be votes on amendments, and there are some key amendments that need to pass, many of the ones that we talked about here tonight. There are others that need to be defeated. There will then be a cloture vote on finishing the bill, and some of the amendments will be voted on after that cloture vote. So it's not going to shut off debate and amendments. But it will result in 30 additional hours, and then the bill coming to a close. And my guess is at the end of the day, there will be more votes for final passage even than there are for cloture."

According to Kyl some of the amendments will be voted on before the 2nd cloture vote and some of them won't. So again, people are all over the map on this issue.

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Comments (47)
If the Senators retaliate with a bill to reintroduce "The Fairness Doctrine", it may be time for us to start a petition to dissolve the Senate and convene an election for all 100 slots - FRESH!
R or D, vote them ALL out.
Republican Senators worried about losing minority rights because of the "clay pigeon" strategy

So let me get this straight. Mass public disapproval of the amnesty bill doesn't budge them, but a threat to their power gets them of their fat asses as though their seats were on fire? Man, I really want their names.
Trent "You-expect-ME-to-eat-at-McDonald's?!" Lott stated that he was unconcerned about the negative calls his office had received since most of them originated from outside Mississippi.

Because he is minority whip, 2nd in command of the Senate GOP'ers, he damn well better be listening to anyone who calls his office. If he really feels that he can disregard anyone not from Mississippi, it's long past time for him to step down or be removed from his position as minority whip.
"He added that a lot of Republican Senators have been offended and embarrassed by their comments and are worried that the voters will lump them in with Graham and Lott"

Only if they vote for cloture and then they will surely be attached by name with the two traitors named above. That Trent Lott we are going to have to do something about him, first this amnesty bill and then threatning talk radio this idiot is out of control.
I think the only thing that can save the Senate now is a big lightsaber duel between Bush and Harry Reid.

Then again, they're on the same side on this issue. We're probably all screwed.
Ho-hum.
Try not to be a jackass, huck. Then again, you probably are trying.
Ho-hum.

Posted by huckupchuck
June 22, 2007 10:15 AM |
**********
Now, strap on your patent leather tap shoes and goose-setp back over to KOS.
Hmmmm.

After months of this nonsense these senators are worried about being "lumped in"??

Frankly I'd suggest that they are far far past that stage considering how pissed off people are. Such as Kay Bailey Hutchinson. Does she really deserve kudos for not voting for cloture? Or does she deserve a big boot in the ass because it took her months to figure out that her constituents are pissed off about her position on the bill?

I'd think the latter.
Does anyone else get pissed off listening to M-E-D-"V as in vanity"-E-D talk about this bill? Why is it that usually normal-headed republicans that know enforcing preexisting laws is more important than creating new laws that will be rendered unenforceable, are now completely on the other side of conservative principles. What's your theory?
Posted by Ipwnallah
June 22, 2007 11:13 AM |

I haven't heard Medved talk about it, but I've heard he's for the bill, which is sort of surprising and yes, I'm getting kind of nervous about the way supposedly "conservative" Congressmen are acting over this. Makes me wonder if some of the claims I've heard, not only of a NAU but other interesting things which I'll not go into here, might be true. It's troubling, to say the least.
Here's an interesting chain email making the rounds... any thoughts if there is these are even real quotes, or is it just anti-illegal immigration stuff made up to push that point of view?



Subject: FW: You old white people. It is your duty to die

It's obvious that some Americans don't want to believe this - - but maybe it is time you take a look at what is happening to OUR country. . . .



"You old white people. It is your duty to die."

HISPANIC LEADERS SPEAK OUT!


"Go back to Boston ! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die . Through love of having children, we are going to take over. Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets:

"They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay." Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council.

"The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot." Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico :

"We have an aging white America . They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . .. I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it." Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas

"Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California ." Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, !!!

"We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back." Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, !!!

" California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave." Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton

"We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California " Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General ,

"We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . " Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University

Are these just the words of a few extremists?? Consider that we could fill up many pages with such quotes. Also, consider that these are mainstream Mexican leaders.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO : On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S. team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said, "This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this profession."

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs, education, and government contracts?

Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and third world immigrants should get special, privileged status. Some examples are Exxon,Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine Weber, Starbucks and many more. Wake up Americans.

DID YOU KNOW?: Did you know that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals? Did you know that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to do so?



According to the L.A. Times, Orange County , California is home to 275+ gangs with 17,000 members; 98% of which are Mexican and Asian. How's your county doing?

Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system. "Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems and more pictures and multicultural references."


WHEN I WAS YOUNG: When I was young, I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis Island . They wanted to learn English. They wanted to breath free. They wanted to become Americans.

We welcome legal immigrants who come to this country the right way!!



Now too many immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in their own language. They demand special privileges--affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify their culture.

HOW CAN YOU HELP?: Send copies of this letter to at least two other people, 100 would be even better. Help us get the word out.

Be aware of what is happening

around you!



For more information and to verify the above statements, go to : http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/hispanic.asp <http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/hispanic.asp>



"What's your theory?"

I don't listen to Medved. Now I know why.
Was listening to Tony Snow on Hannity the other day. I realize it's now his JOB to present the best side of things the Administration does to the press and such, but he was being another one acting like we're all a bunch of ignorant rednecks who don't have any idea how much GOOD this bill will do, and only latch onto a few of the things the "scare-mongers" (paraphrasing) have dug out of it.

Last message I sent to McConnell, I said that I can only assume he's decided to retire from the Senate, since there's no way he's going to be re-elected...
Posted by Mike_M
June 22, 2007 11:39 AM |

He's really all I get on my way home from work. He does have an excellent viewpoint on Islam.
Posted by Ipwnallah
June 22, 2007 11:59 AM |

That's what's bothering me the most about this. Otherwise logical, thoughtful people are acting like they've lost their minds. I'm sorry, but this thing is so bad that I don't see a way for any true conservative to support it, much less go on the air and go to bat for it. There's something decidedly rotten about this.
Hmmmm.

I wonder if Tony Snow realizes that he's burning all of his credibility while working for this administration.

I used to like Tony Snow but after the nonsense he's been dealing out I really can't say that I trust him. And no. The fact that Tony Snow is dealing out nonsense as part of his job doesn't absolve him.
Take it however one may:

http://apnews.myway.com/articl...70621/D8PTGRL80.html

Supposedly McConnell noted his lack of election funding and decided that he really, really, really, really isn't so certain about voting for or against this Amnesty Bill.

And this time he means it.

(Sarcasm off)
Yawn.
Isn’t it telling that dhem-o-crats think the bill is toooooo tough? And now we get to use them to help us kill it because the bill is too lenient for our likes. Scary to think what happens when real liberal dhemocrats get total power. Punishing any crime will be tooooo tough on the criminal. Instead, dhemocrats will channel good vibes into the criminal with hopes that will stop them.
Yawn.

If this topic is so damn boring to you, huck, why don't you step away from the computer while the adults have a conversation, m'kay junior?
Posted by huckupchuck
June 22, 2007 12:55 PM


Quit being a dick.
If this topic is so damn boring to you, huck, why don't you step away from the computer while the adults have a conversation, m'kay junior?

Posted by V-Jay
June 22, 2007 1:51 PM


I think you mean while the girls have yet another b*tchfest.

Quit being a dick.

Posted by jasamc
June 22, 2007 2:42 PM


What? No sense of humor? I thought I was supposed to be the only humorless one at RWN.
I heard Lott with Hannity yesterday. Of course Hannity is so slow on follow up it kills me.

How many times did Lot say " well the Dems control the Senate, what can we do". Well jackass, the reason they own the senate is because you did nothing but play liberal footsie for 12 years, idiot.

How many times did Lott say, "Well we voted for funding and building the fence, what else can we do"? Well dipshit, what would the democrats do if the executive ignored the law and did not perform as expected? Drag their ass up in front of congress and fry them just before firing them you turd monkey.

People, we need to clean the Republicans out. The good with the bad. Send them the way of the Wigs.

Otherwise we are nothing but batterred wives that just keep coming back for more. We will desearve
what we get.

GWB is turning out to be more of a disaster for conservatism that his Father.

Who said "One good spy (read traitor) is better than 10,000 soldiers".

Folks Bill Clinton could only dream of doing the damage that the Bushes have done.

ATTN: JOHN HAWKINS!

whether this atrocity passes the Senate or not would you please do us a big favor and make sure you post a complete list of who voted for it and who did not.

thank you.
I wonder if Tony Snow realizes that he's burning all of his credibility while working for this administration.

Naw Tony Snowjob is not burning his integrity, he has none left to burn.
People, we need to clean the Republicans out. The good with the bad. Send them the way of the Wigs.


I guess sending both good and bad republicans to a hairpiece recycling factory or to Cher's armoire might be just as good as sending them into political oblivion. But, I don't know ... ;)
"Naw Tony Snowjob is not burning his integrity, he has none left to burn."

I think you mean Crony Snowjob.

What? No sense of humor?


But you haven't said anything even remotely amusing. Were you under the mistaken impression that you had?
I think huck was alluding to the monkey crank show they are putting on. It does not seem like anybody wants the bill, because it's a bad bill. Something to fix immgration has to be a grand vision.
Speaking of Lott, the asshole also is now on record as criticizing Talk Radio, which of course is playing into Democrat hands to bring back political censorship in this country under the guise of the so-called Fairness Doctrine.

Maybe Trent should consider sticking to a part time job with a Barbershop Quartet and leave politics well enough alone?
I think you mean Crony Snowjob.

Posted by Mike_M
June 22, 2007 5:44 PM |




I really have to wonder what Tony's position on the immigration bill would have been if he still had his radio show...
"Does anyone else get pissed off listening to M-E-D-"V as in vanity"-E-D talk about this bill? Why is it that usually normal-headed republicans that know enforcing preexisting laws is more important than creating new laws that will be rendered unenforceable, are now completely on the other side of conservative principles. What's your theory?"

Medved's an elitist. I can recall one occasion when only a week after he said that we shouldn't deport illegals because "it isn't practical", he was ranting that all homeless people needed to be locked up, because "we are a nation of laws". He openly stated that the reason he was on a tear about the homeless was that he had encountered one when he was shopping, and felt that they should be kept away from his regal presence. The only interactions he probably has with illegals is with his nanny, landscaper, etc.
"I really have to wonder what Tony's position on the immigration bill would have been if he still had his radio show..."

I can remember Snowjob being pro-amnesty on his radio show. The elitists, both Republican and Democrat, want a permanent underclass. On one program I recall Tony asking the listeners if they would accept paying more for a house, and he clearly was arguing for keeping the illegals here. He and Medved and the RINO Senators are completely OK with the long-term destruction of our sovereignty, as long as in the short-term they can profit personally from illegal alien crime.
Orthdoxa - you are right. Before he went to the White House he said numerous times that we could not deport 12 million people. Said it was not practical or realistic. He said we would have to deal with it. I lost all respect for Tony Snow a long time ago. He is a shrill for Big Business. Does not give a damn about the poor and middle class and what illegal immigration is doing to them.

People like Tony Snow, Fred Barnes, Billy Kristol and the rest of the Neo-Cons - f'em. They are not conservatives and have never been conservatives - just a bunch of whores for the biggest buck.
"He said that he's hoping that a coalition of conservatives who think this is a bad bill, liberals who think this bill is too tough, and Republican senators worried about losing minority rights because of the "clay pigeon" strategy will get together and block the bill."

I don't think this is what Bush had in mind when he said he hoped that "Democrats and Republicans could work together."
Then again, he wasn't backing this POS bill then either.
But you haven't said anything even remotely amusing. Were you under the mistaken impression that you had?

Posted by CavalierX
June 22, 2007 6:04 PM


You don't find the endless repeat of the histrionics amusing? It's the same story every time: an immigration bill surfaces, conservatives go ape over it, nothing happens and nothing changes. Repeat ad infinitum. I find continued conservative apoplexy over it quite amusing. And, after the umpteenth time it happens, also quite boring.

I think huck was alluding to the monkey crank show they are putting on. It does not seem like anybody wants the bill, because it's a bad bill. Something to fix immgration has to be a grand vision.

Posted by D-Vega
June 22, 2007 7:15 PM


Absolutely. Both the folks in DC as well as the folks going ape at RWN. One big, tedious, boring monkey crank show that we all knows very, very well by now.
Trent "You-expect-ME-to-eat-at-McDonald's?!" Lott stated that he was unconcerned about the negative calls his office had received since most of them originated from outside Mississippi.

Because he is minority whip, 2nd in command of the Senate GOP'ers, he damn well better be listening to anyone who calls his office. If he really feels that he can disregard anyone not from Mississippi, it's long past time for him to step down or be removed from his position as minority whip.

Posted by Cartman
June 22, 2007 7:24 AM |

**************************

PRECISELY THE WAY I FEEL ABOUT IT!

I GAWR-OWN-BLASTED-TEE!!!!!
Does anyone else get pissed off listening to M-E-D-"V as in vanity"-E-D talk about this bill? Why is it that usually normal-headed republicans that know enforcing preexisting laws is more important than creating new laws that will be rendered unenforceable, are now completely on the other side of conservative principles. What's your theory?

Posted by Ipwnallah
June 22, 2007 11:13 AM |

**********************

The hotter the furnace, the more dross rises to the top.

This bill is smokin' them out.

THIS is crunch time!
It's the same story every time: an immigration bill surfaces, conservatives go ape over it, nothing happens and nothing changes.


Why am I not surprised that you get the story wrong? A bill surfaces that would grant amnesty to criminals and allow mass immigration, Conservatives raise a fuss, amnesty bill goes away until next time the elites think they can sneak it by. So if you don't like us discussing it -- on Hawkins' site, I might add, not yours -- then go the hell away. You're becoming as big a bore as the more trollish Libs.
Medved's an elitist. I can recall one occasion when only a week after he said that we shouldn't deport illegals because "it isn't practical", he was ranting that all homeless people needed to be locked up, because "we are a nation of laws". He openly stated that the reason he was on a tear about the homeless was that he had encountered one when he was shopping, and felt that they should be kept away from his regal presence. The only interactions he probably has with illegals is with his nanny, landscaper, etc.

Posted by Orthodoxa
June 22, 2007 11:03 PM |


Medved lives on waterfront property in the wealthiest suburb here in Seattle. So, you are correct: the closest he ever gets to an illegal alien is his poolboy. His compassion comes cheap; very, very cheap.

And, if he really believes the tripe he is spouting, he proves that even knowing history is NOT a 100% guarantee against repeating it.
Absolutely. Both the folks in DC as well as the folks going ape at RWN. One big, tedious, boring monkey crank show that we all knows very, very well by now.

Posted by huckupchuck
June 23, 2007 1:07 AM |

Now, go crank your monkey some place else before someone drops a house on you.
Posted by Rose
June 23, 2007 2:03 AM |
************

When Lott is voted out of office, he should become the new spokesman for The Hair Club for Men, certainly a position he's better suited for than Senate Minority Whip.
Did Lott really say, "Do you expect me to eat at McDonalds?"

GAWD... and we wonder why the Republicans seem to have suffered a meltdown in the face of a Democratic Party itself so ineffective it hasn't accomplished a single damned thing since it won control of the Congress.
When Lott is voted out of office, he should become the new spokesman for The Hair Club for Men, certainly a position he's better suited for than Senate Minority Whip.


Posted by Cartman
June 23, 2007 10:17 AM |

*********************

Seems like a high aim for his talents to me!
Looks like he'd make a great headquarters manager for the DIM PARTY, though. :)
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